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Polling: 2017 General Election, Council Elections and Independence

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7 minutes ago, HTG said:

Of course independence is the only resolution. Otherwise we'll always stand accused of spending another country's money. That's been the position on university education, prescriptions and now the NHS pay rise.  

Just make the break and we'll either afford things or we won't. Like Ireland. Or Denmark. Or ... anywhere really. 

We're a country who doesn't vote Conservative being managed by one who does. And that country is pushing further right as each month passes. 

Scotland is different. It is not England. 

I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England. 

England should be Scotland's best friend and trading partner. But if England insists on holding on to Scotland then the prism does narrow. How can it be otherwise. More than half of us want to be independent - too many to think this can all be sorted by just feeding them cereal and putting them back in their box. 

The game's up the pole. 

Excellent post.

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Further to the 'becoming more right wing as you get older' logic not being likely to tie into independence, I'm not sure how much relevance it's going to have over the coming decades in the UK generally anyway.

Baby boomers moved to the right because a significant number of them had tangible rewards for doing so, for example right to buy followed by protecting their mortgage, then ceasing to have any desire for continued funding through taxation of further education or housing at the point they no longer depended on it, therefore being happy with lower taxes that helped them to protect their assets and build healthy pensions.

If you're 30 now, you don't and likely won't ever own a house due to the amount you're spending on rent to a private landlord, have an unstable employment situation with your income vastly poorer in relation to the cost of living than your parents and grandparents at the same age, the idea of putting money into a private pension is laughable and you know that by the time you reach the current state pension age then the pension age is likely to be higher than your life expectancy, then what exactly are you going to start voting Tory for?

When you've hit the point that the majority of people are closer to the latter situation than the former, then flag-shagging by itself isn't going to be enough to keep people moving to the right.

Edited by Dunning1874

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1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said:

Further to the 'becoming more right wing as you get older' logic not being likely to tie into independence, I'm not sure how much relevance it's going to have over the coming decades in the UK generally anyway.

Baby boomers moved to the right because a significant number of them had tangible rewards for doing so, for example right to buy followed by protecting their mortgage, then ceasing to have any desire for continued funding through taxation of further education or housing at the point they no longer depended on it, therefore being happy with lower taxes that helped them to protect their assets and build healthy pensions.

If you're 30 now, you don't and likely won't ever own a house due to the amount you're spending on rent to a private landlord, have an unstable employment situation with your income vastly poorer in relation to the cost of living than your parents and grandparents at the same age, the idea of putting money into a private pension is laughable and you know that by the time you reach the current state pension age then the pension age is likely to be higher than your life expectancy, then what exactly are you going to start voting Tory for?

When you've hit the point that the majority of people are closer to the latter situation than the former, then flag-shagging by itself isn't going to be enough to keep people moving to the right.

I think the only thing that's going to work to shut up generational rage is the incoming climate catastrophe. I think some people on the right will hope and expect that eco-fascism will drive people to settle for the scraps they have.

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Of course independence is the only resolution. Otherwise we'll always stand accused of spending another country's money. That's been the position on university education, prescriptions and now the NHS pay rise.  
Just make the break and we'll either afford things or we won't. Like Ireland. Or Denmark. Or ... anywhere really. 
We're a country who doesn't vote Conservative being managed by one who does. And that country is pushing further right as each month passes. 
Scotland is different. It is not England. 
I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England. 
England should be Scotland's best friend and trading partner. But if England insists on holding on to Scotland then the prism does narrow. How can it be otherwise. More than half of us want to be independent - too many to think this can all be sorted by just feeding them cereal and putting them back in their box. 
The game's up the pole. 

I couldn’t have put it better myself. I have lived in England and have many friends and family down there.
My wife is English and her parents are both life long Conservative voters, they are now finding it harder to argue against Indy as I only have to point them towards the PM and the shenanigans of his Government in Westminster.
IMG_1616697431.576019.jpg

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On 22/03/2021 at 19:09, ICTChris said:

I wrote my dissertation on the Committee system of the Scottish parliament and one of the main ideas behind it was that it would be bipartisan and would be able to hold the Executive, as it was then, to account across party lines. This is not going so well.

I’m pretty sure that every party currently represented in the Parliament has voted with the SNP to get a budget through at some point. There certainly isn’t a bipartisan atmosphere in the Parliament now though, as far as I can see, and there definitely isn’t one within Scottish politics as a whole.

I don't think you are looking hard enough or perhaps it suits your purpose?

have a look here for evidence

17:20:05 for more evidence

17:13:28 for Peter Chapman who is representative of those that would wish to convince us it isn't working

The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill was an example of cooperation and beyond the soundbites even Adam Tomkins made a collegiate contribution.

 

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10 hours ago, TheScarf said:

I think the younger generation aren't absolutely obsessed with WW2 and the 'Rule Britannia, Blitz Spirit' shite that the boomer, no-voting,'if we go indy ah'll lose my penshin' demographic are.

I personally know folk in their 60's who voted no in 2014 due to the fear of them losing their pension.  Utter madness.

My mum and dad both voted no for that reason although they were both in their 70s. TBH my dad would have voted no regardless, but I think my mum could have been persuaded were it not swallowing the pension line whole 

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6 hours ago, HTG said:

I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England.

I went to school in one of the Home Counties, where Morris Dancing was commonly performed by folk who would practice all year for May Day.

They were routinely mocked by all and sundry for being a bunch of hankie-waving weirdos who took part in a tedious and embarrassing anachronism - never feel bad about taking the piss out of Morris Dancers, as virtually everyone down south does  :P

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7 hours ago, Dunfermline Don said:


Ah the F word! The only way federalism would work in the U.K. would be to split England up into regions and I don’t think that there is much of an appetite for that down south.
I would happily have taken Devo Max back in 2014 if it had been an option but now feel only independence will resolve the constitutional issue.

Federalism in the UK would be a legal impossibility without a written UK constitution, and there's no chance of that happening.

A core constitutional principle in the UK is that parliament can't bind its future self. An example of this is the fixed-term parliaments act, which said elections would be every 5 years unless a two-thirds majority in the House of Commons vote for an early election. That was never worth the paper it was written on, because the government could always pass a one-page Act by simple majority to amend the Act and call an election any time they liked - which happened in 2019 (it got a big majority but it was never needed).

The UK parliament could abolish the Scottish Parliament tomorrow with a one-page Act, or amend any of its powers, and there's literally no way to take that power away from them without a written constitution constraining the powers of the UK parliament for the first time in several centuries.

There's no way any party trying to win General Elections in England is going to re-write the entire basis of the UK's constitution, with all the time and effort that would involve, just to give Scotland federalism. It's just never going to happen and it's time folk realised it will never be an option.

I'm not sure what people mean by Devo Max, but anything that Westminster could take back is unlikely to quell demand for independence.

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1 minute ago, BFTD said:

I went to school in one of the Home Counties, where Morris Dancing was commonly performed by folk who would practice all year for May Day.

They were routinely mocked by all and sundry for being a bunch of hankie-waving weirdos who took part in a tedious and embarrassing anachronism - never feel bad about taking the piss out of Morris Dancers, as virtually everyone down south does  :P

That's part of what's wrong with them tbh - they've not brought their folk culture into the modern time as everyone else around them has, which has turned Englishness and English culture into a hollow vessel that's been filled with Spitfires, poppies, lager and flags.

Chas and Dave are England's Proclaimers.

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8 minutes ago, GordonS said:

That's part of what's wrong with them tbh - they've not brought their folk culture into the modern time as everyone else around them has, which has turned Englishness and English culture into a hollow vessel that's been filled with Spitfires, poppies, lager and flags.

Chas and Dave are England's Proclaimers.

You won't stop talking! Why don't you give it a rest?

(seriously, Chas & Dave were quality)

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Chas and Dave are England's Proclaimers.

Must take umbrage with this........ in fact it's not Chas n' Dave, it's Flanagan and Allan.

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1 hour ago, BFTD said:

I went to school in one of the Home Counties, where Morris Dancing was commonly performed by folk who would practice all year for May Day.

They were routinely mocked by all and sundry for being a bunch of hankie-waving weirdos who took part in a tedious and embarrassing anachronism - never feel bad about taking the piss out of Morris Dancers, as virtually everyone down south does  :P

Highly irrelevant to the thread but one of the most surreal moments in my life happened in the late 1980s when I woke up one Saturday morning, looked out of the front room window and saw a troop of Morris dancers down the street.

I didn't dream it, I'm damn sure of that.

Mind you, typical Edinburgh suburb. Some people get plagued by Orange marches, we get plagued by Morris dancers.

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8 hours ago, HTG said:

Of course independence is the only resolution. Otherwise we'll always stand accused of spending another country's money. That's been the position on university education, prescriptions and now the NHS pay rise.  

Just make the break and we'll either afford things or we won't. Like Ireland. Or Denmark. Or ... anywhere really. 

When they talk about Scotland would be in massive debt I always think to myself that in my lifetime there's only been about one national leader who paid off his country's national debt.

Nicolae Ceaucescu.

And his people were so grateful they shot him. 

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6 hours ago, sophia said:

I don't think you are looking hard enough or perhaps it suits your purpose?

have a look here for evidence

17:20:05 for more evidence

17:13:28 for Peter Chapman who is representative of those that would wish to convince us it isn't working

The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill was an example of cooperation and beyond the soundbites even Adam Tomkins made a collegiate contribution.

 

I see it's official ScotCon policy (one of few, admittedly) to formally repeal it.

I admire their optimism, since being a bill that was passed with cross-party approval, they're going to have to win an outright majority at Holyrood to achieve their goal.

Edited by Boo Khaki

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I think the younger generation aren't absolutely obsessed with WW2 and the 'Rule Britannia, Blitz Spirit' shite that the boomer, no-voting,'if we go indy ah'll lose my penshin' demographic are.
I personally know folk in their 60's who voted no in 2014 due to the fear of them losing their pension.  Utter madness.


I’ll go on better.
I worked with someone who voted no because he thought he’d lose his free bus pass he’d just received.

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I think anyone that uses the bus will have heard auld yins discussing their reasons for not wanting independence; stuff about pensions and that kind of thing comes up, along with the nebulous, "I worry about the world the weans are growing up in". As an auld yin herself, my mother regularly despairs at the reasoning behind a lot of these arguments.

I don't think most folk are that stupid. When you read between the lines, the general rule seems to be that they don't want independence and are looking for an excuse. Most of the elderly folk who site pensions will then go on to betray a dislike of "that woman", and the independence movement in general, but usually don't have any concrete reasons. I think it comes down to the fact that they want to change things; things that they've been happy with their entire life and that are now being questioned, and it probably makes them feel as though people are saying they're stupid for not having questioned it themselves.

Just a theory, but a less depressing one than that the most experienced generation think the UK Government is spiteful enough to leave them potless on the streets, but that we should stay wedded to them anyway.

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8 hours ago, tamthebam said:

When they talk about Scotland would be in massive debt I always think to myself that in my lifetime there's only been about one national leader who paid off his country's national debt.

Nicolae Ceaucescu.

And his people were so grateful they shot him. 

Norway operates with a huge surplus rather than a national debt. Meanwhile failed state UK spent the same windfall chucking people on the dole, destroying local communities and then slashing taxes for the rich. 

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4 hours ago, mizfit said:

 


I’ll go on better.
I worked with someone who voted no because he thought he’d lose his free bus pass he’d just received.

 

I know someone that voted for Indy because "Am Scottish"

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2 hours ago, virginton said:

Norway operates with a huge surplus rather than a national debt. Meanwhile failed state UK spent the same windfall chucking people on the dole, destroying local communities and then slashing taxes for the rich. 

Enlightened Skandi buggers, so they are. Whilst they were busy squirreling away billions during the 80's, our oil cash kept Thatcher in power. Norway has 5.3 million citizens and their wealth fund equates, as at Jan 2021, to £170,000 per person.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/norways-sovereign-wealth-fund-gains-more-than-90bn-during-2020

Edited by Florentine_Pogen

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1 minute ago, Florentine_Pogen said:

Enlightened Skandi buggers, so they are. Whilst they were busy squirreling away billions during the 80's, our oil cash kept Thatcher in power.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/norways-sovereign-wealth-fund-gains-more-than-90bn-during-2020

Yes you're right, North Sea Oil Revenue has been squandered  by westminster.

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