Polling: 2017 General Election, Council Elections and Independence

[git-intae-thum]

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Unfortunately idealistic declarations like that don't mean much in practice. For example, how's that going for the inhabitants of Iraqi Kurdistan, Nagorno Karabakh and Catalonia right now?

Kosovo only became different on that when it suited NATO to cut Serbia down to size after it became too uppity and disruptive for its own good. When Yugoslavia initially started unravelling only the six federal republics were recognised by the international community as having a right to independence within Tito's internal borders and around half of the UN's member states still see it that way and think Kosovo je Srbija.

This is a silly comparison. None of the above in bold have ever previously been an independent state. More concisely, none of them whilst being an independent state voluntarily signed a treaty to enter a union with another state.

Further, it cannot be argued that on assuming the articles of union the notion of Scotland as a separate place ceased to exist. That is patent nonsense when you consider special preservative measures were included in relation  to Scots law, education, banking and education.

In terms of international law, I would suggest Scotland's position to be much closer to what was the status of the UK in the EU, than Catalonia in Spain etc.

No one can deny the right to exit a treaty entered voluntarily......if that is the will of the Scottish people.

[pandarilla]

I agree, but the alternatives are exactly what the unionist want the pro-independence side to do - lose their collective shit, get angry, talk about UDI and civil disobedience. The folk that have just moved from No to Yes have supported independence for about 5 minutes, so none of the previous arguments ever persuaded them. Not indyref, not Brexit, not Boris becoming Prime Minister. The decisive factor seems to be that coronavirus has led them to believe that Scotland would handle the big stuff better than England.
They can easily be driven away by what they perceive as extremism. They can be lost as quickly as they arrived.
It's not a coincidence that support for independence in Catalonia has fallen since the Falangists went around cracking skulls. The middle ground are very moderate and fearful, and as much as you might want them to get justifiably angry, it's more likely that they'll think it's not worth the trouble.
I don't know what the best tactic is but I know it's not what the harder-line pro-independence folk want.

Excellent post.

I'd add that ns has an incredibly difficult balancing act to maintain.

I agree with the 'gently, gently' approach but at the same time history shows us that things can change quickly.

She has to make a move at some point - as conditions won't necessarily always be favourable.

[NotThePars]

9 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

This is a silly comparison. None of the above in bold have ever previously been an independent state. More concisely, none of them whilst being an independent state voluntarily signed a treaty to enter a union with another state.

Further, it cannot be argued that on assuming the articles of union the notion of Scotland as a separate place ceased to exist. That is patent nonsense when you consider special preservative measures were included in relation  to Scots law, education, banking and education.

In terms of international law, I would suggest Scotland's position to be much closer to what was the status of the UK in the EU, than Catalonia in Spain etc.

No one can deny the right to exit a treaty entered voluntarily......if that is the will of the Scottish people.

Counterpoint, absolutely nobody in a position of any clout actually gives a shit about any of this. 

[SANTAN]

17 hours ago, NotThePars said:

"Scotland is an ancient nation and we are a people with the absolute right of self-determination as defined in Article 1 (ii) of the UN Charter. That right of self-determination in international law is inalienable. It cannot be constrained by the domestic legislation of any subsuming state, as indeed the UK government argued successfully before the International Court of Justice in the case of Kosovo.

Boris Johnson can have no veto over the right of the people of Scotland to choose their own path. The possibility should not be entertained. It is an affront to international law."

You have to give him credit for playing to his credulous base with that opening salvo though. Treating international relations like a Paradox title.

How do you think international law would react to the fact we self determined in 2014? Sincere question as I have no clue but thought that part would be pertinent when trying to argue you're being denied the right to self determination. 

[git-intae-thum]

2 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Counterpoint, absolutely nobody in a position of any clout actually gives a shit about any of this. 

Yes it's dry. But when it comes to the legal case it is of importance.

[SandyCromarty]

23 hours ago, NotThePars said:

"Scotland is an ancient nation and we are a people with the absolute right of self-determination as defined in Article 1 (ii) of the UN Charter. That right of self-determination in international law is inalienable. It cannot be constrained by the domestic legislation of any subsuming state, as indeed the UK government argued successfully before the International Court of Justice in the case of Kosovo.

Boris Johnson can have no veto over the right of the people of Scotland to choose their own path. The possibility should not be entertained. It is an affront to international law."

You have to give him credit for playing to his credulous base with that opening salvo though. Treating international relations like a Paradox title.

There will be plenty of these 'jumping on the bandwagon' types we've never heard of spewing out of the woodwork when we gain Independence..

[SandyCromarty]

23 hours ago, alta-pete said:

Forgive me for leaping in without having read previous posts, but.

Has anybody yet ventured the idea - give NS’ undeniably huge positive approval rating - of launching the (suitably renamed) SNP as a national UK party with her at the head?

That way we don't need independence but we can instead rule across the four nations from Edinburgh. Labour becomes even more of an irrelevance and the Tories start mobilising to gain independence for the Home Counties. 

Just an idea...

Does the Matron and the male nurses know you have access to a phone/laptop?

Be careful, if they find out they might have you back in a straightjacket.

Edited November 1, 2020 by SandyCromarty

[NotThePars]

22 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

There will be plenty of these 'jumping on the bandwagon' types we've never heard of spewing out of the woodwork when we gain Independence..

Murray's been pretty active since indyref1 and before hasn't he?

 

[SandyCromarty]

2 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Murray's been pretty active since indyref1 and before hasn't he?

 

There was just that one positive yes tweet the night before the 2014 ref. 

[git-intae-thum]

Surely someone is being whooshed.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

Murray's been pretty active since indyref1 and before hasn't he?

 

He was a bit creeped out when Salmond started waving a Saltire behind David Cameron when he won Wimbledon, but apart from that I think he's been quietly supportive.

[Colkitto]

 

Poll - Scottish Independence Referendum “Should Scotland be an independent country?” Yes 54% (+1) No 46% (-1) 1,071 respondents, residents of Scotland, aged 16+, fieldwork 28 Oct - 4 Nov 2020. Changes w/ 2-7 Sep 2020

 

[Colkitto]

 

Poll –Scottish Parliament Constituency vote SNP 54% (+1) CON 19% (-1) LAB 18% (-) LD 7% (+1) OTH 2% (-1)

 

[Colkitto]

Poll –Scottish Parliament, Regional List vote SNP 43% (+2) LAB 19% (+1) CON 17% (-1) GRN 10% (-) LD 7% (-1) BXP 2% (-) UKIP 1% (-) OTH 1% (-)

 

[Colkitto]

Poll – Scotland Westminster Voting Intention: SNP 52% (+1) LAB 20% (-1) CON 18% (-2) LD 8% (+2) OTH 2% (-)

 

[Blootoon87]

STOP THE COUNT!

[DrewDon]

24 minutes ago, Colkitto said:

Poll – Scotland Westminster Voting Intention: SNP 52% (+1) LAB 20% (-1) CON 18% (-2) LD 8% (+2) OTH 2% (-)

 

#LibDemSurge

[doulikefish]

Key race alert

 

[GNU_Linux]

How long do we reckon until yes hits 60%?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

How long do we reckon until yes hits 60%?

Soon if Alastair 'Pontius Pilate' Jack keeps issuing edicts.