Paco Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 If the 2021 SE is ran on mandate of independence with a few positive snipets from Europe and independence parties get over 50% he can't ignore it. If he did, and there is no overwhelming peaceful protests on the streets we really are craven shitebagsYou’ll notice how the movement has already shifted from ‘before Brexit happens’ to ‘in 2020’ to ‘after the 2021 election’. What makes you think it’ll be any different when 2021 arrives? The only way to get a referendum is to get Tories out. The only way to get Tories out is for Labour to win. Labour won’t win if they say they’ll grant a referendum. ‘Overwhelming peaceful protests’ would achieve nothing either, except making some people feel a bit better, pretty much as the constant marches do now. I genuinely don’t see the way out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blootoon87 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 There isn't a single mandate that won't be ignored. Elections as well. Westminster are never going to hand a referendum over. I think Sturgeon knows this, and expects to be taking it to court afterwards. I don't think she'd have even mentioned it if she didn't, let alone say it was a possibility.Pretty much my take on it. The higher the polls go for Yes, the less likely Johnson (or whoever is running the show) will grant a referendum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Scotland needs some vocal European allies. Not just sympathetic comments but something more distinct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastermind Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 If he refuses it after the SNP romp the 2021 elections, then there will be an almighty uproar. He should have gambled and let Nic have it Q4 of this year as we'd have probably voted No. Just delaying the inevitable now. Johnson just refused it last month after the SNP romped more relevant elections in December. And there was barely a whimper in Scottish daily life. Has Nicola actually come up with a meaningful Plan B yet after her waffle last week? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 This sums up the situation perfectly, no matter what the result of an election(s),where public opinion sits, or what opinion polls show the Scottish Parliament can be ignored.This is not a "union of equals" but the Westminster Govt. imposing its will on the devolved Nations Parliaments.Johnson just refused it last month after the SNP romped more relevant elections in December. And there was barely a whimper in Scottish daily life. Has Nicola actually come up with a meaningful Plan B yet after her waffle last week? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastermind Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 This sums up the situation perfectly, no matter what the result of an election(s),where public opinion sits, or what opinion polls show the Scottish Parliament can be ignored.This is not a "union of equals" but the Westminster Govt. imposing its will on the devolved Nations Parliaments.It’s the Prime Minister of the UK making decisions on behalf of the UK. Exactly as the majority of the Scottish voters voted for in the once in a generation referendum. Hard lines if the anti-English minority can’t take getting beaten. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 47 minutes ago, Mastermind said: Johnson just refused it last month after the SNP romped more relevant elections in December. And there was barely a whimper in Scottish daily life. Has Nicola actually come up with a meaningful Plan B yet after her waffle last week? Paint lies on the side of a bus so the thick c***s will start voting as told? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mastermind said: It’s the Prime Minister of the UK making decisions on behalf of the UK. Exactly as the majority of the Scottish voters voted for in the once in a generation referendum. Hard lines if the anti-English minority can’t take getting beaten. Quite right, we should just let our English friends decide what's best for us, and forever more. Because that's what we voted for, nothing to do with the only way to stay in the EU as promised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Hence my point about "union of equals" . As long as there is a majority of English MP's in Westminster, no matter what colour, then what the ruling party decides is best for the UK(England) will prevail. Even if it is not, as in this case, in the interests of the devolved nations.It’s the Prime Minister of the UK making decisions on behalf of the UK. Exactly as the majority of the Scottish voters voted for in the once in a generation referendum. Hard lines if the anti-English minority can’t take getting beaten. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 They may assume that. They may even try to carry it out but it's going to look horrifically colonial if that's the case. If a proportion of the remaining Labour vote moves across to Yes in the way that Unison has - even if only on the right to determine - then it's burst. The Tories in Scotland fought the last election (and the 4 before it) on a single issue. They got leathered. That's not sustainable. You can't carry on denying the will of a people without looking like a total c**t.I don’t think Boris Johnson of all people is going to care about looking like a total c**t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, NotThePars said: I don’t think Boris Johnson of all people is going to care about looking like a total c**t. Maybe not. But in the love bomb of his predecessor, we got all this "union of equals" stuff. Now, with a population in England which is 10 times that of Scotland it isn't reasonable to believe it's a union of equals - something exemplified by the number of times Scotland didn't vote for a Tory govt but got one and accepted it all the same. A better description would be a union of consent. If you don't have a union of consent then you have something else - dominance, control or just custom and practice. Scotland has consistently voted the SNP and/or other independence minded parties into power over a period of years now - to various parliaments. In the most recent election, the SNP were very clear about their desire for a referendum to give the people of this country a choice of Europe or the UK (let's not go down the daft argument that Scotland wouldn't get in). They secured 48 seats out of 59. Their main rivals lost half their seats. Any union of consent has to recognise that there is a cast iron mandate to offer the people an option to leave or remain. Anything else is exerting a level of control that is simply not appropriate. Johnson may be comfortable with this but it's just not sustainable. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donathan Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I’m fairly pessimistic about the prospect of international community support for self-determination in Scotland. Catalonia certainly hasn’t enjoyed such support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 15 hours ago, oaksoft said: Not rioting is not about being servile FFS. It's because we are not animals in this country. There still isn't even a sustained majority for Yes in the polls. Any violence whatsoever and Independence dies overnight. Decades of work to get to this stage and it would all be lost. Any moderate Indy supporter would likely walk away from it. Yes needs to build on recent polls and work on getting synpathetic support from other nations, particularly those in the EU. Anyone even thinking about violence should be kicked into the sea for the useless, brainless morons that they are. I wasn't suggesting we take to the streets tomorrow and demand this shit. If support grows and we keep being told to sit down and shut up, what are the options? I'm sorry, but "sympathetic support" from EU countries will count for absolutely f**k all. Catalonians are having to fight for their freedom, but somehow the rUK government will be man handled into giving us a referendum? The EU won't get involved, we are not part of it and they have no authority here to demand anything of the rUK government. I'm not a violent guy, never thrown a punch in anger in my entire life and I've avoided confrontation at just about every opportunity, but when you're faced with the situation Paco outlined, I'm not sure what other options you've got. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG_03 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Donathan said: I’m fairly pessimistic about the prospect of international community support for self-determination in Scotland. Catalonia certainly hasn’t enjoyed such support. That would be slightly different if Spain was leaving the EU though. The EU won't get involved other than to say they're sympathetic to Scotland and would be welcome providing we meet the criteria. Johnson will be under pressure IF(as seems likely) the SNP do well in the 2021 elections on an indyref2 manifesto but he'll just keep saying the decision was made in 2014. No PM wants to be the one remembered for losing Scotland from the UK. There's no way out for Scotland in this 'union of equals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Getting towards 60% in the polls. Securing international support for a transfer of power to call IndyRef2. Then you are looking at continued and increasing wins at every election. Then you want to be talking to the other Scottish parties and saying "Look, how much longer can you deny that we have a mandate for independence?" and attempt to gain support from them. Getting Labour on board on top of the Greens would leave the Tories isolated in Scotland. Labour very nearly caved in recently and it might just be a Brexit timing thing. A massive win in 2021 might be the catalyst for them to change their minds. That is the bare minimum. We've just had a massive win. I'm struggling with the notion that just one more big win will be the one that forces the Tories hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, MixuFixit said: He's basically correct though, while numbers currently can wobble between majority yes to majority no, if whatever it wobbles to it's still in majority yes territory, and it's only the Tories who are pro no then it becomes untenable to keep denying. The WM tories are gambling on saying no and waiting on it going back below 50% long term. The Tories saying no to it right now isn't a tenable position. We have an overwhelming majority in the Scottish parliament and we voted them in to deliver a referendum. Nothing they've said to deny it so far is acceptable to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, AB de Villiers said: Can you prove that everyone voted the SNP in ‘to deliver a referendum’? Not only will not every SNP voter back independence, the SNP will also have recieved an inflated number of votes due to people refusing to vote Labour, tactically voting etc to keep the Tories and Brexit out. Having an overwhelming majority in the Scottish Parliament means very little when support for independence has consisted returned a ‘No’ in 95% of polls over the last 4 years. Of the 5% of polls that have returned a ‘Yes’, they have been scattered out across a few years, and have been very narrow majorities. I’m also afraid you’re not in the position to decide what is ‘acceptable’. The SNP campaigned on having another referendum. People voted for them, overwhelmingly, so we should have another referendum. If people who voted for the SNP don't want independence then they can vote No in the referendum. What's the problem with that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 The unionist policy now is to condition us to accept that there won't be another referendum no matter what the polling shows. It doesn't matter how many people vote SNP, somehow it's got nothing to do with indyref. Then they go on about democracy and delivering what people really want, which I'm sure will be a hard Brexit. And somehow this will be interpreted as me calling them sub-human scum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandyCromarty Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, The Moonster said: I wasn't suggesting we take to the streets tomorrow and demand this shit. If support grows and we keep being told to sit down and shut up, what are the options? I'm sorry, but "sympathetic support" from EU countries will count for absolutely f**k all. Catalonians are having to fight for their freedom, but somehow the rUK government will be man handled into giving us a referendum? The EU won't get involved, we are not part of it and they have no authority here to demand anything of the rUK government. I'm not a violent guy, never thrown a punch in anger in my entire life and I've avoided confrontation at just about every opportunity, but when you're faced with the situation Paco outlined, I'm not sure what other options you've got. The Catalans unfortunately have never been able to show a majority for Independence, hence Spains stance presently. Edited February 5, 2020 by SandyCromarty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said: I haven’t mentioned anything of the sort. I’ve said we should refer to the polling data, more Nat lies. Nobody said voting SNP has ‘nothing to do with indyref’. More Nat lies. Unionists do go on about democracy. I respect the result of every election and referendum in the country, that’s more than what could be said about the Nats. Nat lies everywhere... Calls me a liar after making up shit about me. f**k off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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