Jump to content
John Lambies Doos

Polling: 2017 General Election, Council Elections and Independence

Recommended Posts

Referendums are a novelty in our politics, we still have to learn how to deal with them. The 2016 one ignored what the electorate of 1974 decided. We've got millions of new voters who could be bound by what now deceased voters wanted in 2016. How is that fair? In 2016 hardly anyone knew how complicated the whole thing would be disentangling 40 years of cooperation. If we come out now there will be years of negotiations to come whether we crash out or not, only to attempt to get back to a similar level of cooperation and free trade and movement we have now. We should have the right to change path.


You could say the deceased thing about any referendum, it’s a very weak argument. Referendums are held for reason, and ‘we didn’t know’ isn’t a valid excuse when one side doesn’t get the result they want. It was voted for democratically, therefore it has to happen. If we have another one now, the same thing will be pushed for after every future referendum. It’s dangerous, and basically kills off all democracy.

If there’s another referendum and ‘Remain’ win, will you be okay with having another referendum 3-4 years later because some people may have died?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Reducing the deficit year on year whilst also keeping the country out of recession, keeping inflation low, and interest rates low. Given the state that Labour left the place in I think the Conservatives have been remarkable and all without ever resorting to real austerity. 

Can you look at any of the other leaders and imagine they and their party could have done as good a job?

Yeah, I have to be honest I have never understood the continual references to austerity over the last decade because we have continued to borrow beyond our means every year since the crunch. That's not austerity FFS.

Edited by oaksoft

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, alta-pete said:

Eh, maybe you haud oan a wee minute Malky.

I'm in business and the last year or so has been abject torture. I certainly ain't thriving and getting richer. As far as I can see - in my admittedly narrow scope -  no-one is making any major investment decisions until Brexit picks a direction to go off in. From a business owners perspective, I now just don't care - I want it resolved one way or another. The small crumb of comfort that I can take is that we had virtually the exact same situation in the run up to September 2014. And, funnily enough, once that issue was decided it was like someone had turned the lights back on and normal service resumed almost overnight.

The lack of clarity from the Labour Party, the denial of the result by the Lib Dems and the perma-obstructiveness of the SNP over the past year or so means Boris is the only one offering a clear direction. His super clean super green super car (or whatever it was he said) wanting to get going is a quite apt metaphor. Too much time has been spent agonising over the result. The genie is now out of the bottle and these characters need to find a way forward. Soon.  And as much as it'll likely pain the majority on here, the only way that is going to happen is a decent Tory majority. Then we can all get on with the thriving. 'Getting on with the day job' as it were...

You must have missed Malky's imaginary friend and his thriving candle business

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 


 ‘we didn’t know’ isn’t a valid excuse.

 

How about the electorate being fed a litany of lies by Vote Leave? (Big fat lie on a big fat red bus)…..is that a valid excuse?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, I have to be honest I have never understood the continual references to austerity over the last decade because we have continued to borrow beyond our means every year since the crunch. That's not austerity FFS.
The cuts have been severe but I take your point about still running a deficit.

Getting rid of trident would be a head start but we all know austerity isn't about cutting the deficit, it's about diminishing the role of government on social issues (ie fucking the poor).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How about the electorate being fed a litany of lies by Vote Leave? (Big fat lie on a big fat red bus)…..is that a valid excuse?


Every side of a referendum always has scaremongering. It’s up to the person voting to ensure that that they know what they are voting for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Except we won't be getting in with the day job, far from it. Every influential body of political and economic opinion strongly suggests that even with a clear Johnson majority this will be merely the end of the beginning; anyone thinking that there will be a quick and smooth change thro the gears may be disappointed.

A Johnson Government will be an assembly of doctrinaire incompetence, and I would expect the EU to impale it on all manner of precise detail. The soundtrack will be the clanging of workplace doors.

The more I hear 'Get Brexit Done' it translates to 'Just Let Me Amputate Your Leg'. Madness, on a huge collective scale.

Well, to continue your metaphor, it seems the majority felt your leg was gangrenous.

Your objection to Johnson is perfectly fair. Your objection and wish to frustrate the result is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Brexit was voted for the by the public, if you are suggesting in any way that Brexit should not happen then you are simply anti-democratic.

It's complicated by being a union of countries but that wasn't really what I was getting at. More that your vote in the name of a noble principle will, if it leads to a Tory majority, just deepen the misery inflicted on people who don't deserve it. Nobody with an intact soul is going to pat you on the back for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Yeah, I have to be honest I have never understood the continual references to austerity over the last decade because we have continued to borrow beyond our means every year since the crunch. That's not austerity FFS.

Your grasp of economics is about as weak as Detourment who makes the opposite argument. 

Yes you cannot borrow  endlessly.

But no borrowing does not mean you are "living beyond your means". 

Within mainstream Keynsian economics borrowing has to be counter cyclic, that is you pay down the debt when the growth is good but you then access the credit markets and maintain growth through downturns, i.e. you borrow against cycles. 

If you make too rapid a set of cuts during downturns you withdraw currency from circulation, reduce economic activity and cut services that support long term growth. 

Quote

 

In October 2012, the IMF announced that its forecasts for countries that implemented austerity programs have been consistently overoptimistic, suggesting that tax hikes and spending cuts have been doing more damage than expected and that countries that implemented fiscal stimulus, such as Germany and Austria, did better than expected.[19]

The IMF reported that this was due to fiscal multipliers that were considerably larger than expected: for example, the IMF estimated that fiscal multipliers based on data from 28 countries ranged between 0.9 and 1.7. In other words, a 1% GDP fiscal consolidation (i.e., austerity) would reduce GDP between 0.9% and 1.7%, thus inflicting far more economic damage than the 0.5 previously estimated in IMF forecasts.[20]

In many countries, little is known about the size of multipliers, as data availability limits the scope for empirical research.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity#Multiplier_effects

 

The UKs cuts were too sharp given the scale of the downturn thus seriously delayed returns to growth, that delay in return to growth likely undermines many of the economic activities that supported growth in productivity. Without the growth in productivity we have been in a sustained slump in wage growth. 

7697_fig1.jpg

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7697

The image is from the hated (for Corbyn fanbois) IFS. So you cannot really support this research and junk their other research because you do not like it. 

But anyway:

By excessive cuts early in the Cameron administration, support for the economy was withdrawn that produced lower growth than forcast (Osborne and successors missed nearly every growth target). So the shock cut austerity led to sustained underperformance in GDP growth extending the period of low wage increases and restrained government spending. 

 

Complex arguments. 

The replies may not quite be willing to engage in the nuance. :rolleyes:

Edited by dorlomin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Brexit was voted for the by the public, if you are suggesting in any way that Brexit should not happen then you are simply anti-democratic.

Sometimes the public are wrong. This is one of those times. If you’re so adamant its the will of the public whats the harm in the confirmatory referendum that Farage suggest in early 2016?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 


You could say the deceased thing about any referendum, it’s a very weak argument. Referendums are held for reason, and ‘we didn’t know’ isn’t a valid excuse when one side doesn’t get the result they want. It was voted for democratically, therefore it has to happen. If we have another one now, the same thing will be pushed for after every future referendum. It’s dangerous, and basically kills off all democracy.

If there’s another referendum and ‘Remain’ win, will you be okay with having another referendum 3-4 years later because some people may have died?

 

The sooner we sort out the current mess, that can only be sorted out with confirmatory referendums, and go back to the boring old way of representative democracy, the better. People voted on emotions over a hugely technical issue, often on false premises. TAKING BACK CONTROL! What does that even mean?

Edited by welshbairn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I reckon that could backfire - his comments are yet more unsubstantiated assertions, light on detail and facts, and designed solely to damage Labour.  It is also patronising for him or any other religious leader to assume that their flock meekly follows whatever is handed down from the pulpit - this is 2019 not 1919.  I have yet to meet anyone who is exercised about Labour's alleged treatment of it's Jewish members and MP's; that's not to say that there are not incidents and individuals to be dealt with, but I wonder what this holy man thinks of, for example, the scandalous treatment of the Windrush generation, or the crisis in London's rented housing sector. 

I'd also hazard that most abuse directed towards British Jewry will still come from the extreme political right, as it has done for generations.  He's either being naïve or malicious, which is it ?

It looks like it is blowing back in their faces already. Javid being asked to defend Islamophobia in every press conference. Muslim Council urging investigation into the tories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

Scotland democratically voted to stay in the UK and therefore votes as the UK, not Scotland. Brexit definitely increases the likelihood of indyref2, but anybody opposing Brexit actually happening now is clearly anti-democratic.

 

You have confused being anti-demagog with anti democratic. 

Democracy is an ongoing and evolving process, not a bus you get off when you reach a stop you like (as claimed by another demagog, Recep Erdogan)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"If you don't like it you can bugger off back to Africa/Pakistan/Russia/Israel" never comes across well.


Interestingly, it wasn’t “Zionists” being invited to leave and go to Israel, it was “Jews”.

Of course, he meant zionists I’m sure...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears having a racist homophobe as prime minister isn't enough to disuade the usual suspects from voting for the vermin. 'A safe pair of hands aye ?'

This might take a few posts, but here goes

The tories have presided over a decade of wage stagnation.

IMG_20191126_184629.jpg.5361c3e4154cbb1fc2a23214cc16f367.jpg

They've cut around 20,000 police officers in England and Wales.

IMG_20191126_185543.jpg.a70c549df417559f674fb6f59a0a8519.jpg

21% drop in fire fighters.

IMG_20191126_185722.jpg.ceb361395ad29a4af7d545ae7fb1cc64.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Referendums are a novelty in our politics, we still have to learn how to deal with them. The 2016 one ignored what the electorate of 1974 decided. We've got millions of new voters who could be bound by what now deceased voters wanted in 2016. How is that fair? In 2016 hardly anyone knew how complicated the whole thing would be disentangling 40 years of cooperation. If we come out now there will be years of negotiations to come whether we crash out or not, only to attempt to get back to a similar level of cooperation and free trade and movement we have now. We should have the right to change path.

How many people voted for the easiest deal in history?  How many voted for more money for the NHS?  How many voted leave because we hold all the cards?  How many believed German car manufacturers would make it all work for us?  How many thought other countries would follow the UK and the EU would collapse.

How many thought it would all be done and dusted by now?

Maybe we should ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

A bit on health now.

Waiting lists at a record high.

IMG_20191126_191855.jpg.3c9d495af691f67d0eff80a6958a2f98.jpg

A&E waits now much longer.

IMG_20191126_191941.jpg.03517b4a9ce2ef1b19f57a2f4d323e1d.jpg

62 day waiting time target for cancer patients not met since 2013.

IMG_20191126_192037.jpg.ec8ff8400bdb103fe4f7888e7ebeda3c.jpg

 

 

Aye, but GET BREXIT DONE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Always thought it was class that the Tories managed to get "Labour were personally responsible for the global financial crash" inserted into the accepted public wisdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...