Polling: 2017 General Election, Council Elections and Independence

[Granny Danger]

OK a lot can happen before the next election but I’m going to try to take some positives from this.  Haven’t seen an extrapolation of seats but a Labour minority relying on SNP support is both possible and encouraging.

The views of the majority in the 65+ age group on everything is totally disheartening.
 

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/bzxqxn4yvg/TheTimes_VI_220519_w.pdf

[dirty dingus]

Winning at life.  I see a pensioner in bowling clobber with the Sevco tie and poppy enamel badge on the lapel combo stumbling through some double-barreled Tudor town shouting the odds whilst passing the late night kebab shop and singing his party tunes weaving along the white lines in the middle of the road.

 

On the polling - If yoons are that confident why try do everything to block it. You Gov was founded by a former Tory candidate and the Mp who claims expenses for keeping his horses warm.  Wonder how many folk from deprived areas they poll?

Edited May 26, 2022 by dirty dingus

[BigDoddyKane]

Good government increases the Yes vote, we seem to have been lacking that

[Albus Bulbasaur]

58 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Winning at life.  I see a pensioner in bowling clobber with the Sevco tie and poppy enamel badge on the lapel combo stumbling through some double-barreled Tudor town shouting the odds whilst passing the late night kebab shop and singing his party tunes weaving along the white lines in the middle of the road.

 

On the polling - If yoons are that confident why try do everything to block it. You Gov was founded by a former Tory candidate and the Mp who claims expenses for keeping his horses warm.  Wonder how many folk from deprived areas they poll?

It's pretty hard to block something that's not actually been put forward... 

If the SNP are so confident with their mandate why on earth haven't they held another referendum since 2014? 

I think most Unionists on here have said they'd gladly have another referendum as soon as possible to settle the issue. 

Also I don't think people from deprived areas would be so keen to vote for the economic uncertainty SI would bring. Questioning the validity of the poll makes it seem like you're shitting it as the prospect of Indy slowly drifting away into the distance, which is understandable because it is... 

Remember when the Indy movement was filled with youthful voices? Seems like the youngsters just aren't that fussed, climate change seems to be their big issue nowadays and Indy has been left to the old miserable cloud shouters. 

[dirty dingus]

3 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

It's pretty hard to block something that's not actually been put forward... 

If the SNP are so confident with their mandate why on earth haven't they held another referendum since 2014? 

I think most Unionists on here have said they'd gladly have another referendum as soon as possible to settle the issue. 

Also I don't think people from deprived areas would be so keen to vote for the economic uncertainty SI would bring. Questioning the validity of the poll makes it seem like you're shitting it as the prospect of Indy slowly drifting away into the distance, which is understandable because it is... 

Remember when the Indy movement was filled with youthful voices? Seems like the youngsters just aren't that fussed, climate change seems to be their big issue nowadays and Indy has been left to the old miserable cloud shouters. 

Ah yes the glorious opportunities and economic certainty for those in deprived areas, the sick and that the youth have now. No chance of getting on the housing market, extortionate rents, energy costs, fuel, food and transport costs spiraling, no chance of moving anywhere since freedom of movement ended. Either take a minimum wage job, make your sick money last or hit the foodbank. Getting into further education (for free) seems to be the only proper way of getting anywhere. It's not that people aren't fussed, most people are just beaten by politicians constantly gaslighting and getting away with increasingly ripping the pish and the constant negativity about how shite Scotland is from the right wing MSM and are just to tired and accept it. The classic battered wife scenario. 

A positive campaign will soon see folk getting engaged again. The constant carrot dangling by the SNP about another referendum has pissed off a lot of grassroot activists too but once it's announced I think you'll see them all coming together.   

[Albus Bulbasaur]

3 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Ah yes the glorious opportunities and economic certainty for those in deprived areas, the sick and that the youth have now. No chance of getting on the housing market, extortionate rents, energy costs, fuel, food and transport costs spiraling, no chance of moving anywhere since freedom of movement ended. Either take a minimum wage job, make your sick money last or hit the foodbank. Getting into further education (for free) seems to be the only proper way of getting anywhere. It's not that people aren't fussed, most people are just beaten by politicians constantly gaslighting and getting away with increasingly ripping the pish and the constant negativity about how shite Scotland is from the right wing MSM and are just to tired and accept it. The classic battered wife scenario. 

A positive campaign will soon see folk getting engaged again. The constant carrot dangling by the SNP about another referendum has pissed off a lot of grassroot activists too but once it's announced I think you'll see them all coming together.   

You've recognised proper concerns and world wide problems related to poverty and filed them under some grievance junkie box. 

These issues aren't unique to Scotland and leaving the UK would exacerbate most of those issues. Posts like this make it seem like poverty only exists in Scotland. You've got the same issues impacting children and families in England and all across the world. The world would be a far better place if there was less inequality but your solution for it is pissing in the wind. 

I look forward to this "positive" case whenever that might eventually be. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

There'll no doubt be another poll in a months time showing it at 50/50 again. The independence supporters will say 'look, see' and the unionists will mumble the same old shit.

We'll then get another poll with staying in the union at 58% and we'll do this all over again.

What fun !

 

[BigDoddyKane]

Independence is the way forward that would create the best opportunity to improve things.

However the SNP is mediocre at best and clueless at worst how to get there during what should be with Brexit, Tory uk govenrment shambles, a clown as a UK PM and most hated since thatcher, a labour party thats imploded. One of the easiest times to increase the Yes vote. 

At some point surely to feck even the most devout snp voters will question a bit more whats been achieved last 8 years since Brexit 

[Dan Steele]

6 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

These issues aren't unique to Scotland and leaving the UK would exacerbate most of those issues. Posts like this make it seem like poverty only exists in Scotland. You've got the same issues impacting children and families in England and all across the world.

I don't think anyone would argue that poverty is a serious issue and of course there are issues to be addressed. But here's where people differ - some like you argue that leaving the UK would exacerbate the problems whilst others recognise the chance independence offers for Scotland to address the problems in a way that's very different from the direction Westminster is heading. Clearly the marked move to the (even further) right of the current UK government is different to the way Scots want to travel. Having the desire to create a socially just and inclusive Scotland needs all the financial levers. If not, there is definitely no chance of the issues being addressed and changed for the better.

[dirty dingus]

4 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

You've recognised proper concerns and world wide problems related to poverty and filed them under some grievance junkie box. 

These issues aren't unique to Scotland and leaving the UK would exacerbate most of those issues. Posts like this make it seem like poverty only exists in Scotland. You've got the same issues impacting children and families in England and all across the world. The world would be a far better place if there was less inequality but your solution for it is pissing in the wind. 

I look forward to this "positive" case whenever that might eventually be. 

It's called Tory rule which we don't vote for. The acceptance of poverty in a rich country is a decision made by the government, If everyone is suffering why do the rich continue to get richer in tough economic times? 

Look up comparisons for sick pay, pension, unemployment benefit with the rest of Europe. 

Genuine Socialist Labour values would address these issues but unfortunately ScotsLab and Sir Kier's lot are red tories and the press would never let someone like Jeremy Corbyn get into power.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

4 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

I don't think anyone would argue that poverty is a serious issue and of course there are issues to be addressed. But here's where people differ - some like you argue that leaving the UK would exacerbate the problems whilst others recognise the chance independence offers for Scotland to address the problems in a way that's very different from the direction Westminster is heading. Clearly the marked move to the (even further) right of the current UK government is different to the way Scots want to travel. Having the desire to create a socially just and inclusive Scotland needs all the financial levers. If not, there is definitely no chance of the issues being addressed and changed for the better.

But we already do have some power to tackle these issues and the SNP don't seem to do much better than down south at all. I keep hearing about this utopian world that Scottish voters want but please can you explain why there isn't the appetite for that now. Why is it always argued that post Indy this would spring up, I recognise the full levers argument but with some control now you'd expect to see more movement on this "socially just and inclusive Scotland" front whereas we don't see that at all. Just rhetoric about how we could do better which is a massive gamble considering the economic risks. 

I don't agree with your last line at all. I think people in poverty now or people in deprived areas would significantly do better under a Labour government than they would in the even of Scottish Independence.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

9 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

It's called Tory rule which we don't vote for. The acceptance of poverty in a rich country is a decision made by the government, If everyone is suffering why do the rich continue to get richer in tough economic times? 

Look up comparisons for sick pay, pension, unemployment benefit with the rest of Europe. 

Genuine Socialist Labour values would address these issues but unfortunately ScotsLab and Sir Kier's lot are red tories and the press would never let someone like Jeremy Corbyn get into power.

I didn't say the rich are suffering I was pointing out that poverty in Scotland isn't because of England or Tory rule. Depressingly poverty exists all across the planet and is a wider societal issue than people's identity issues within the UK. 

I think Sir Keir will address those issues a lot better than we would in Indy Scotland which is what it boils down to for me. It's really not inconceivable that in the event of Indy Scotland we'd end up electing the SNP or Tory equivalents and have all the issues you've already cited whilst being even more isolated in the world and economically worse off. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Albus Bulbasaur

[TheScarf]

The first thing an independent Scotland would do, or first 2 things, would be to join the EU and join NATO.  If you think otherwise then you're a high level moron.

[dirty dingus]

11 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

It's really not inconceivable that in the event of Indy Scotland we'd end up electing the SNP or Tory equivalents

Why would you think that? The majority of SNP supporters I know come from a left leaning political viewpoint. Tories poll around 20% I doubt that would change much maybe go to 25% after Indy.  Labour can't see the wood for the trees as they and the Greens would be the parties to most profit in an Indy Scotland.

[Dawson Park Boy]

25 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

I don't think anyone would argue that poverty is a serious issue and of course there are issues to be addressed. But here's where people differ - some like you argue that leaving the UK would exacerbate the problems whilst others recognise the chance independence offers for Scotland to address the problems in a way that's very different from the direction Westminster is heading. Clearly the marked move to the (even further) right of the current UK government is different to the way Scots want to travel. Having the desire to create a socially just and inclusive Scotland needs all the financial levers. If not, there is definitely no chance of the issues being addressed and changed for the better.

And that’s your problem. What you need for the above is MONEY, tons of it, which you won’t have. Even the SNP’s own Growth Commission predicts years of austerity with higher taxes and lower state spending. How does that work?

Even at the moment Scotland has higher personal taxes than the RUK and, if that trend continues the wealth creators and aspirational will migrate South.

Couple that with the SNP’s anti business rhetoric - anti oil and gas, no nuclear, no GM crops, the list goes on.where is the growth coming from? They parrot ‘green jobs’ but, so far, very few of those jobs are in Scotland as most of the wind turbines are produced abroad. Regards shipbuilding we can’t produce ferries and I would guess that naval work  will shift south.

Please explain. How will all these fine words pan out in reality?

[Albus Bulbasaur]

7 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

The first thing an independent Scotland would do, or first 2 things, would be to join the EU and join NATO.  If you think otherwise then you're a high level moron.

Polls out today about how most of Scotland wants to keep trident too. 

4 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Why would you think that? The majority of SNP supporters I know come from a left leaning political viewpoint. Tories poll around 20% I doubt that would change much maybe go to 25% after Indy.  Labour can't see the wood for the trees as they and the Greens would be the parties to most profit in an Indy Scotland.

Who do you think would likely be elected in Indy Scotland and what fundamental changes or differences do they have with the current batch of Scottish political groups? 

Andrew Wilson -

 

[Highlandmagar]

19 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I didn't say the rich are suffering I was pointing out that poverty in Scotland isn't because of England or Tory rule. Depressingly poverty exists all across the planet and is a wider societal issue than people's identity issues within the UK. 

I think Sir Keir will address those issues a lot better than we would in Indy Scotland which is what it boils down to for me. It's really not inconceivable that in the event of Indy Scotland we'd end up electing the SNP or Tory equivalents and have all the issues you've already cited whilst being even more isolated in the world and economically worse off. 

Poverty is getting worse.

 

Brexit. Loss of trade, extra cost for companies importing and exporting. Because of Tory rule

Inflation. Rampant. Because of Tory Rule.

Cost of living crises. Because Tory rule held back any help to people in most need, indeed withdrew the extra benefit given during covid, when they were warned that it would drop people into poverty. Tory rule.

 

Child poverty. Worsening year on year since the Tories came in. Because of Tory rule

People who were just keeping their heads above water before this present economic crisis are now drowning and in utter despair. Because of Tory rule.

 

Because of Tory rule poverty on Britain is worse since records began and is worsening by the day. A Tory government who, quite frankly, do not care about the poor, disadvantaged and the disabled, because they don't contribute to society through no fault of their own. 

This Tory government is the most reactionary right wing administration in history. Even Thatcher didn't go this far. She even changed her policies into her second term when she saw it was destroying Britain.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

11 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Poverty is getting worse.

 

 

I'm aware who's in charge of the government and that they're mendacious shitebags but your alternative isn't an improvement. 

Independence doesn't solve poverty, doesn't help with things like the cost of living crisis or post Brexit issues. It makes most of these things worse. I've said I'd be a lot warmer to the idea if we could rejoin the EU on day one but right now you're advocating cutting ourselves off completely just to spite the Tories. That doesn't improve quality of life for anyone on the breadline.

I've got a lot more time for people who want Independence because of their identity insecurities or because they're pro PR voting but the idea we should have Scottish Independence to financially improve people's lives is fantasy nonsense and  quite dangerous to people already struggling. Be honest about it. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Albus Bulbasaur

[dirty dingus]

11 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Polls out today about how most of Scotland wants to keep trident too. 

Who do you think would likely be elected in Indy Scotland and what fundamental changes or differences do they have with the current batch of Scottish political groups? 

 

I think it will be a left of centre party whether that's a Scot's new look Labour party or a Green party with many of the current SNP joining. I don't think they'll be a need for an SNP after maybe a 1 term govt for transition.

In an Indy Scotland there should be more power to the public, so referenda on things like Trident, NATO, royalty and rejoining the EU can all be done in one ballot.

[Highlandmagar]

3 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I'm aware who's in charge of the government and that they're mendacious shitebags but your alternative isn't an improvement. 

Independence doesn't solve poverty, doesn't help with things like the cost of living crisis or post Brexit issues. It makes most of these things worse. I've said I'd be a lot warmer to the idea if we could rejoin the EU on day one but right now you're advocating cutting ourselves off completely just to spite the Tories. That doesn't improve quality of life for anyone on the breadline.

I've got a lot more time for people who want Independence because of their identity insecurities or because they're pro PR voting but the idea we should have Scottish Independence to financially improve people's lives is fantasy nonsense and  quite dangerous to people already struggling. Be honest about it. 

It isn't about only financial betterment. It's about society care, civil liberties, creating a society where you do not fear the liss of liberties and rights as well as financial betterment of your own people. Our future is NOT fully in our hands. It is beholden to a Westminster government who have no regards for Scotland or even Wales and Northern Ireland ( particularly at the moment). They are little Englanders and their arrogance permeats throughout society. Yet again, I will say that Brexit unleashed the simmering right wing bigotry and small minded of the populace that ensured a huge Tory majority. Even if Labour manage a majority at the next election they will not improve things much. They are petrified as being a' social' party because wether you like it or not, the media run elections and Labour dance to their tune. Have done so since Blair. Hence, no matter what you think of Blair and what he got up to( nothing in comparison to our present PM), he always won elections. Majorities in Westminster are made in England, and Scotland invariably gets the government it didn't vote for.