Polling: 2017 General Election, Council Elections and Independence

[dirty dingus]

The vast majority of Yoons are weird they try to deny their stupidly blinkered staunchness by kidding on they can't support Indy on minor stuff and try to conflate it. I don't trust them on the Trans debate or why do I have to pay for baby boxes when my weans are all up or that Salmond I just don't trust him, he has an auld wife or that wee nippy she's just too nippy. I don't mind folk who admit they are happy with the status quo because they are doing well but that fleg55 lot can gtf.

[Dawson Park Boy]

I have never voted SNP in my life and, realistically, am not likely to.

However, I’m not so set in my ways that I can’t look at the independence issue as a possibility. 
One of my sons is an independence supporter, doesn’t like the SNP, too lefty,but votes for them.

I find I’m getting tired of all this constant warring over independence and would love to see Holyrood filled with politicians from parties representing a variety of political perspectives as you find in most countries. We’re very like Northern Ireland where everything is seen through the prism of unionism or republicanism.

Surely there must be a constitutional solution which satisfies unionists and nationalists alike without causing a massive upheaval.

Perhaps some kind of federalism could be the answer along US lines?

Ill return to this theme later as I have an online bridge match coming up.

All ideas welcomed.

[SandyCromarty]

12 hours ago, Glen Sannox said:

Vaccines, furlough and currency and are massively important though, and you can rest assured the SNP will not have the answers to these impending questions. I think you might be underestimating “the broad shoulders of the UK” card, that will be relentlessly played.

I'll answer on the currency, it's already been explained a couple of weeks ago but anyway;

The Scottish Government established the Scottish National Investment Bank in November 2020 with funds of £2 Billion, small I know but it will grow.

The reason for this is that it is an absolute requisite, among others, and as per the Copenhagen Criteria to have a functioning and resilient market economy a which by necessity require a National Bank.

So that Scottish Bank on breaking away from the uk would be legally capable of producing it's own currency, whether that would be the Scottish Pound, as the Irish did with the Punt, or the Dollar who knows.

Btw the application for rejoining the EU, Article 49, also includes the Copenhagen Criteria.

So on currency the SNP are ahead of that argument.

I didn't want to mention it but countries with similar populations to Scotland such as Ireland, Denmark and Norway all have similar beneficial schemes as the uk furlough, or did you honestly think that their governments would let their citizens starve? So if they can mange a type of furlough Scotland could, just as westminster has done an Independent Scotland would be more than capable of borrowing money against our vast natural resources. 

 

• Economic: a functioning and resilient market economy

[TheScarf]

16 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

That demographic breakdown is absolutely brutal for the future of the UK.

Yes is absolutely cruising it in the working age population.

I really don't mean this in a disrespectful or offensive way but statistically, you could see something like 20-25% of folk who'd vote No today being dead in 10/15 years time. Even if we don't win a referendum in the next few years, I just don't see how the union can survive those kind of demographic issues.

I think the younger generation aren't absolutely obsessed with WW2 and the 'Rule Britannia, Blitz Spirit' shite that the boomer, no-voting,'if we go indy ah'll lose my penshin' demographic are.

I personally know folk in their 60's who voted no in 2014 due to the fear of them losing their pension.  Utter madness.

[Gordon EF]

21 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I have never voted SNP in my life and, realistically, am not likely to.

However, I’m not so set in my ways that I can’t look at the independence issue as a possibility. 
One of my sons is an independence supporter, doesn’t like the SNP, too lefty,but votes for them.

I find I’m getting tired of all this constant warring over independence and would love to see Holyrood filled with politicians from parties representing a variety of political perspectives as you find in most countries. We’re very like Northern Ireland where everything is seen through the prism of unionism or republicanism.

Surely there must be a constitutional solution which satisfies unionists and nationalists alike without causing a massive upheaval.

Perhaps some kind of federalism could be the answer along US lines?

Ill return to this theme later as I have an online bridge match coming up.

All ideas welcomed.

We'd all stop arguing about independence after independence.

[Gordon EF]

4 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

I think the younger generation aren't absolutely obsessed with WW2 and the 'Rule Britannia, Blitz Spirit' shite that the boomer, no-voting,'if we go indy ah'll lose my penshin' demographic are.

I personally know folk in their 60's who voted no in 2014 due to the fear of them losing their pension.  Utter madness.

Boomers and older were also all reared on this working-class cringe stuff. Your betters have plummy accents and went to private schools. Aspire to that or accept your place. I'm certain that plays a part.

[GordonS]

12 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

Are you seriously suggesting that if the SNP did a u-turn on the GRA that you would consider supporting independence?

I find that hard to believe.

I think what he's saying is that he hates trans people even more than he hates independence. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I think what he's saying is that he hates trans people even more than he hates independence. 

I think what he's saying is that he a bigoted transphobic arsehole who should have been binned off here long ago

[Dawson Park Boy]

29 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

I think what he's saying is that he a bigoted transphobic arsehole who should have been binned off here long ago

I’m just saying that I don’t believe in self identification.

 Nothing wrong in changing sex if you have had drugs and operations and your birth certificate has been amended.

However, I don’t think blokes can just decide to be women.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

3 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I’m just saying that I don’t believe in self identification.

 Nothing wrong in changing sex if you have had drugs and operations and your birth certificate has been amended.

However, I don’t think blokes can just decide to be women.

You think "gender benders" is acceptable. Off you pop boomer. 

[Dunfermline Don]

I have never voted SNP in my life and, realistically, am not likely to.
However, I’m not so set in my ways that I can’t look at the independence issue as a possibility. 
One of my sons is an independence supporter, doesn’t like the SNP, too lefty,but votes for them.
I find I’m getting tired of all this constant warring over independence and would love to see Holyrood filled with politicians from parties representing a variety of political perspectives as you find in most countries. We’re very like Northern Ireland where everything is seen through the prism of unionism or republicanism.
Surely there must be a constitutional solution which satisfies unionists and nationalists alike without causing a massive upheaval.
Perhaps some kind of federalism could be the answer along US lines?
Ill return to this theme later as I have an online bridge match coming up.
All ideas welcomed.

Ah the F word! The only way federalism would work in the U.K. would be to split England up into regions and I don’t think that there is much of an appetite for that down south.
I would happily have taken Devo Max back in 2014 if it had been an option but now feel only independence will resolve the constitutional issue.

[HTG]

Of course independence is the only resolution. Otherwise we'll always stand accused of spending another country's money. That's been the position on university education, prescriptions and now the NHS pay rise.  

Just make the break and we'll either afford things or we won't. Like Ireland. Or Denmark. Or ... anywhere really. 

We're a country who doesn't vote Conservative being managed by one who does. And that country is pushing further right as each month passes. 

Scotland is different. It is not England. 

I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England. 

England should be Scotland's best friend and trading partner. But if England insists on holding on to Scotland then the prism does narrow. How can it be otherwise. More than half of us want to be independent - too many to think this can all be sorted by just feeding them cereal and putting them back in their box. 

The game's up the pole. 

[Highlandmagar]

7 minutes ago, HTG said:

Of course independence is the only resolution. Otherwise we'll always stand accused of spending another country's money. That's been the position on university education, prescriptions and now the NHS pay rise.  

Just make the break and we'll either afford things or we won't. Like Ireland. Or Denmark. Or ... anywhere really. 

We're a country who doesn't vote Conservative being managed by one who does. And that country is pushing further right as each month passes. 

Scotland is different. It is not England. 

I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England. 

England should be Scotland's best friend and trading partner. But if England insists on holding on to Scotland then the prism does narrow. How can it be otherwise. More than half of us want to be independent - too many to think this can all be sorted by just feeding them cereal and putting them back in their box. 

The game's up the pole. 

Excellent post.

[Dunning1874]

Further to the 'becoming more right wing as you get older' logic not being likely to tie into independence, I'm not sure how much relevance it's going to have over the coming decades in the UK generally anyway.

Baby boomers moved to the right because a significant number of them had tangible rewards for doing so, for example right to buy followed by protecting their mortgage, then ceasing to have any desire for continued funding through taxation of further education or housing at the point they no longer depended on it, therefore being happy with lower taxes that helped them to protect their assets and build healthy pensions.

If you're 30 now, you don't and likely won't ever own a house due to the amount you're spending on rent to a private landlord, have an unstable employment situation with your income vastly poorer in relation to the cost of living than your parents and grandparents at the same age, the idea of putting money into a private pension is laughable and you know that by the time you reach the current state pension age then the pension age is likely to be higher than your life expectancy, then what exactly are you going to start voting Tory for?

When you've hit the point that the majority of people are closer to the latter situation than the former, then flag-shagging by itself isn't going to be enough to keep people moving to the right.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Dunning1874

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said:

Further to the 'becoming more right wing as you get older' logic not being likely to tie into independence, I'm not sure how much relevance it's going to have over the coming decades in the UK generally anyway.

Baby boomers moved to the right because a significant number of them had tangible rewards for doing so, for example right to buy followed by protecting their mortgage, then ceasing to have any desire for continued funding through taxation of further education or housing at the point they no longer depended on it, therefore being happy with lower taxes that helped them to protect their assets and build healthy pensions.

If you're 30 now, you don't and likely won't ever own a house due to the amount you're spending on rent to a private landlord, have an unstable employment situation with your income vastly poorer in relation to the cost of living than your parents and grandparents at the same age, the idea of putting money into a private pension is laughable and you know that by the time you reach the current state pension age then the pension age is likely to be higher than your life expectancy, then what exactly are you going to start voting Tory for?

When you've hit the point that the majority of people are closer to the latter situation than the former, then flag-shagging by itself isn't going to be enough to keep people moving to the right.

I think the only thing that's going to work to shut up generational rage is the incoming climate catastrophe. I think some people on the right will hope and expect that eco-fascism will drive people to settle for the scraps they have.

[Dunfermline Don]

Of course independence is the only resolution. Otherwise we'll always stand accused of spending another country's money. That's been the position on university education, prescriptions and now the NHS pay rise.  
Just make the break and we'll either afford things or we won't. Like Ireland. Or Denmark. Or ... anywhere really. 
We're a country who doesn't vote Conservative being managed by one who does. And that country is pushing further right as each month passes. 
Scotland is different. It is not England. 
I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England. 
England should be Scotland's best friend and trading partner. But if England insists on holding on to Scotland then the prism does narrow. How can it be otherwise. More than half of us want to be independent - too many to think this can all be sorted by just feeding them cereal and putting them back in their box. 
The game's up the pole. 

I couldn’t have put it better myself. I have lived in England and have many friends and family down there.
My wife is English and her parents are both life long Conservative voters, they are now finding it harder to argue against Indy as I only have to point them towards the PM and the shenanigans of his Government in Westminster.

[sophia]

On 22/03/2021 at 19:09, ICTChris said:

I wrote my dissertation on the Committee system of the Scottish parliament and one of the main ideas behind it was that it would be bipartisan and would be able to hold the Executive, as it was then, to account across party lines. This is not going so well.

I’m pretty sure that every party currently represented in the Parliament has voted with the SNP to get a budget through at some point. There certainly isn’t a bipartisan atmosphere in the Parliament now though, as far as I can see, and there definitely isn’t one within Scottish politics as a whole.

I don't think you are looking hard enough or perhaps it suits your purpose?

have a look here for evidence

17:20:05 for more evidence

17:13:28 for Peter Chapman who is representative of those that would wish to convince us it isn't working

The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill was an example of cooperation and beyond the soundbites even Adam Tomkins made a collegiate contribution.

 

[madwullie]

10 hours ago, TheScarf said:

I think the younger generation aren't absolutely obsessed with WW2 and the 'Rule Britannia, Blitz Spirit' shite that the boomer, no-voting,'if we go indy ah'll lose my penshin' demographic are.

I personally know folk in their 60's who voted no in 2014 due to the fear of them losing their pension.  Utter madness.

My mum and dad both voted no for that reason although they were both in their 70s. TBH my dad would have voted no regardless, but I think my mum could have been persuaded were it not swallowing the pension line whole 

[BFTD]

6 hours ago, HTG said:

I've said this before, I have dozens of friends in England. They're fantastic people. I like everything about England other than its politics. In the past I'd have mocked something like Morris dancing but I don't now because it's part of a culture and a heritage that people clearly enjoy and good on them. I like the diversity in England.

I went to school in one of the Home Counties, where Morris Dancing was commonly performed by folk who would practice all year for May Day.

They were routinely mocked by all and sundry for being a bunch of hankie-waving weirdos who took part in a tedious and embarrassing anachronism - never feel bad about taking the piss out of Morris Dancers, as virtually everyone down south does  

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, Dunfermline Don said:

Ah the F word! The only way federalism would work in the U.K. would be to split England up into regions and I don’t think that there is much of an appetite for that down south.
I would happily have taken Devo Max back in 2014 if it had been an option but now feel only independence will resolve the constitutional issue.

Federalism in the UK would be a legal impossibility without a written UK constitution, and there's no chance of that happening.

A core constitutional principle in the UK is that parliament can't bind its future self. An example of this is the fixed-term parliaments act, which said elections would be every 5 years unless a two-thirds majority in the House of Commons vote for an early election. That was never worth the paper it was written on, because the government could always pass a one-page Act by simple majority to amend the Act and call an election any time they liked - which happened in 2019 (it got a big majority but it was never needed).

The UK parliament could abolish the Scottish Parliament tomorrow with a one-page Act, or amend any of its powers, and there's literally no way to take that power away from them without a written constitution constraining the powers of the UK parliament for the first time in several centuries.

There's no way any party trying to win General Elections in England is going to re-write the entire basis of the UK's constitution, with all the time and effort that would involve, just to give Scotland federalism. It's just never going to happen and it's time folk realised it will never be an option.

I'm not sure what people mean by Devo Max, but anything that Westminster could take back is unlikely to quell demand for independence.