Academically Deficient Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 I'm genuinely enjoying the optimism in this thread, but I just can't see any Westminster agreement to an indyref2 act of parliament. Why would they? They could ignore SNP mandates in perpetuity, what is anyone going to do about it? They dont care about our anger or that of anyone else who is unlikely to vote Tory. They are prepared to break international law and damage the Good Friday Agreement because it suits them. And unlike Ireland, we dont have any foreign power or structure (like the USA or EU in Ireland's case) to challenge them). I hope I'm wrong. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 I'm genuinely enjoying the optimism in this thread, but I just can't see any Westminster agreement to an indyref2 act of parliament. Why would they? They could ignore SNP mandates in perpetuity, what is anyone going to do about it? They dont care about our anger or that of anyone else who is unlikely to vote Tory. They are prepared to break international law and damage the Good Friday Agreement because it suits them. And unlike Ireland, we dont have any foreign power or structure (like the USA or EU in Ireland's case) to challenge them). I hope I'm wrong.I'm afraid if a democratic mandate is being ignored then people need to 'peacefully' take to the streets. It happens in every other country, yet we no doubt will shite the bed, sit down and eat our cereal -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academically Deficient Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 1 hour ago, Academically Deficient said: I'm genuinely enjoying the optimism in this thread, but I just can't see any Westminster agreement to an indyref2 act of parliament. Why would they? They could ignore SNP mandates in perpetuity, what is anyone going to do about it? They dont care about our anger or that of anyone else who is unlikely to vote Tory. They are prepared to break international law and damage the Good Friday Agreement because it suits them. And unlike Ireland, we dont have any foreign power or structure (like the USA or EU in Ireland's case) to challenge them). I hope I'm wrong. I'm afraid if a democratic mandate is being ignored then people need to 'peacefully' take to the streets. It happens in every other country, yet we no doubt will shite the bed, sit down and eat our cereal Yes, the obvious next step is civil disobedience and violence. I'm sure the spooks at MI5 have factored that in as a possibility. Funnily enough I was watching Michael Palin on telly the other day. He was in the USSR, talking to a young Ukrainian who was telling him that he hoped in his lifetime the Ukraine would be independent. Just 3 months later it was. The USSR seemed so strong and permanent when I was young, but it just imploded so quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) Johnson swore there would be no border on the Irish Sea, then made a binding legal commitment to one, and is now attempting to renege on it, or pretending to. He'll do whatever seems temporarily advantageous at the time. Edited October 13, 2020 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 36 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: This phenomenon is repeated all over the place. There was a majority against gay marriage in the 90s, Keith O'Brien led the last charge against it a few years back till being outed himself and who other than religious cranks would oppose it today? Similar stats for interracial relationships. If I remember correctly, the Berlin Wall was opened by accident and within an hour European history was permanently changed. Portugal stopped being a dictatorship because the army had enough, there were no demonstrations in the street by civilians until the day it happened. I dunno what will happen in future, but looking at the demographics of Scotland and their political sympathies, this isn't going away. Hopefully British Nationalist complacency and their utter conviction that nothing can shake the UK, never mind break it up*, will help contribute to its further breaking up. *witness BritNat ignorance of, or putting their fingers in their ears at, the UK already having been dismantled in the 20s. It’s like they just ignore it happened entirely and continue to believe that the UK is, was, and ever shall be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, welshbairn said: Johnson swore there would be no border on the Irish Sea, then made a binding legal commitment to one, and is now attempting to renege on it, or pretending to. He'll do whatever seems temporarily advantageous at the time. Under pressure from the EU. Until there's similar pressure exerted on Westminster that goes beyond electing governments up here and sending 50 MPs down south to make impassioned speeches in the Commons, he doesn't have to do anything. 4 hours ago, sophia said: A consistent series of majority yes polls followed by a majority for independence next spring will make it inconceivable that whoever the prime minister is at the time would resist a democratic mandate. Wait til you hear what this government's been up to for the last ten years! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: In that scenario I'd be unsurprised if the SNP offered to cement any thin majority he can muster in return for a 3 question/2 stage referendum. I'd also be unsurprised if they'd privately be quite content with winning devomax in that case. This would be the thing to break up the SNP within the UK if it's going to happen. I'd have been more confident of this under Corbyn because he had a progressive vision in mind, seemed a decent guy, and clearly supported the right to self-determination going off his and McDonnell's off-the-cuff statements about Scottish indy. I'm honestly not sure that the Labour Right would willingly concede letting the SNP dictate terms and would even sacrifice the chance of governing to do so. Look at what they did in the last three years to prevent people they didn't like take the reins. Then again, the SNP aren't ideologically opposed to the Labour Right outwith independence so maybe they could work something out but I would still expect shenanigans like a minimum turnout or something else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academically Deficient Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, MixuFruit said: This phenomenon is repeated all over the place. There was a majority against gay marriage in the 90s, Keith O'Brien led the last charge against it a few years back till being outed himself and who other than religious cranks would oppose it today? Similar stats for interracial relationships. If I remember correctly, the Berlin Wall was opened by accident and within an hour European history was permanently changed. Portugal stopped being a dictatorship because the army had enough, there were no demonstrations in the street by civilians until the day it happened. I dunno what will happen in future, but looking at the demographics of Scotland and their political sympathies, this isn't going away. Yes, agree with this. Ireland maybe offers a great example of how huge social change can happen so quickly (divorce, equality, loss of trust in the Church etc.) contrary to the received wisdom of the day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: Oh you're dead right on Corbyn's intentions, but these were not going to be realised as we now know from those whatsapp leaks. He was fighting the tories and the right of his party. I don't really agree with your suggestion they'd do this again this time around because their guy is in charge now and he's wasted no time extirpating the left from influence in the party. There's a reason he's doing that now even though it generates bad press, it's so they're all pulling in the same direction come election time (even if people don't really like that direction). What I've envisaged isn't to my mind the SNP dictating terms - I think Labour would be quite happy with devomax too. Labour and the Conservatives are to all intents and purposes English parties now. I know the leftovers up in Scotland flail about but they're not relevant in any meaningful way to what policy the UK party adopts. They're a local government organisation with a few MSPs. In any case, the SNP would be insane to press very aggressively to adopt a tail wagging the dog position, as the campaign materials and headlines would write themselves and shatter the Labour vote the next time round, and then the tories really would go all out on dismantling devolution, but openly this time. Fun times ahead anyways. Yea I don't really disagree with any of that although I can say from being inside the party that it's the Labour Right who hate the SNP the most despite the Labour Left having the biggest grievance with the SNP rhetoric not matching the reality. Couple that with them being snakes and I think that's the issue if the SNP are working out terms with them. The Scottish Labour tail still wags the dog up here in terms of how they approach independence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Just now, MixuFruit said: The Scottish Labour Right, right? Aye. I think Ian Murray has quite a bit of sway down south though where you know he's poisoning the well for any constructive talks between the two parties down the line. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Aye, massive 'our man in Edinburgh' vibes about Murray and the Labour right/melts. And the Labour right grievance with the SNP is fuelled as much by independence as it is by being ursurped as the 'job for life / pin a rosette on a monkey' hegemonic power. You're not going to get that sweet, sweet House of Lords gown and shill for landlords and arms companies if you can't even get elected in Paisley. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, doulikefish said: Ooooft! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 The recent poll which put YES at only 53%, would have some excitedly anticipating a downward trend and I'm most perturbed that their vainglorious musings will be required to be postponed cancelled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Those numbers are superb - I can’t wait to see what Historywoman is saying on twitter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Support for Yes up to 58%. No drops to only 39% amongst those who are decided. Onwards and upwards! Quote Support for independence has risen to an unprecedented 58% of Scots, according to a new poll. The Ipsos MORI poll for STV News found just 42% back staying in the union when undecided voters are stripped out, with 58% in favour of a breakaway. Including undecideds, 55% of people would vote Yes if there was an independence referendum tomorrow, 39% would vote No and 6% said they didn’t know. It’s the biggest lead in a poll ever recorded for the pro-independence side. https://news.stv.tv/politics/poll-support-for-independence-hits-historic-high-of-58?top 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArabianKnight Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 The union is dead. Absolutely glorious. Nothing like the tories being in power for 10 years, the massive folly of Brexit and clownshoes handling of a pandemic whilst very public corruption plays out to make folk realise how much of a cesspit Westminster is. Fabulous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: Aye, massive 'our man in Edinburgh' vibes about Murray and the Labour right/melts. And the Labour right grievance with the SNP is fuelled as much by independence as it is by being ursurped as the 'job for life / pin a rosette on a monkey' hegemonic power. You're not going to get that sweet, sweet House of Lords gown and shill for landlords and arms companies if you can't even get elected in Paisley. So true. However I'd add as a former Labour member and voter that the many in left of Scottish Labour also shares the pathological hatred of the SNP. I was friendly with a former Labour MSP who was every bit the Corbynite and her associates, one of whom was a councillor in Fife positively frothed at the mouth regarding the SNP. He was also determined to unmask the Labour for Indy types and have them ejected from the party. It became pathetic when he was constantly retweeting the UltraYoon mouth breathers on Twitter and then reacting angrily when it was suggested that seeing Labour Councillors doing dirty deals with the Tories (like in Aberdeen) to keep the SNP, who had more councillors than either party, out of power was not a good look in the eyes of the public. But that was like talking to a brick wall. They still don't get it. Edited October 14, 2020 by AndyM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 13 minutes ago, Wee Bully said: Those numbers are superb - I can’t wait to see what Historywoman is saying on twitter. 650,000 Tweets. Totally normal behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 15 minutes ago, Wee Bully said: Those numbers are superb - I can’t wait to see what Historywoman is saying on twitter. Not her, but they're pure raging.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.