Th1rteen R3asons Why

[DrewDon]

6 minutes ago, the_bully_wee said:

I, personally, don't think Hannah was initially displayed to the watcher as a loner or a weirdo; rather someone having difficulty settling into new surroundings whose reputation gradually declines to untenable levels to the point where she, to both herself and her peers, is seen as a loner and a weirdo. I don't think there's anything particularly objectionable about that.

What you say here is entirely fair and I would not challenge pretty much any of it - and, to be honest, this is a relatively minor quibble of mine. I just thought that making Hannah a bit more, well, 'socially unacceptable' might just have made the show - and her character - a little bit more 'authentic' (or more real, perhaps). Hannah has many strengths as a character, I should add, but I just wondered whether there was maybe a bit of a missed opportunity there. 

I am obviously not promoting the idea that girls like Hannah would not fall victim to bullying and cruelty of the nature documented in this show; they absolutely can and do - especially of a sexual nature, which I should say that I think the series broadly does a good job of portraying. I probably should have been a bit clearer about that in my first post. 

26 minutes ago, the_bully_wee said:

Hannah herself expresses her remorse/confusion regarding why she did nothing while Jessica was raped, but I'd agree that they could've played more on her guilt regarding it being a factor in her depression. What I don't agree with is the notion that Hannah solely uses the rape as a plot point in her story - if not for the tapes, then who would've known about it besides Justin and Bryce? Would it ever have come to light? I think they give enough coverage to Jessica in the later episodes to show just how much the revelation that firstly she was raped, and secondly that her boyfriend sanctioned it, crushes her. The tapes, for me, are as much about exposing her peers' cruel actions, words and their lies as telling the story of why she committed suicide.

Without the tapes, unless Hannah or Justin had spoken to Jessica personally (or Bryce had suddenly grown a conscience), it is entirely possible that Jessica would never have found out. Hannah is, however, arguably the second most responsible person for Jessica's suffering - second only to their mutual rapist, Bryce. Hannah is prepared to expose Jessica's rape to listeners without the consent or even knowledge of the victim; that is arguably a vastly more objectionable act than anything on the tapes outwith Bryce's. She victimised herself in Jessica's rape, but it was never her trauma to own or dictate. 

Justin could also do more, mind. It is absolutely not enough of an excuse, but his home situation does make him partially dependent on Bryce; so, to an extent, I can understand why his pretty dreadful personal circumstances require him - initially, at least - to take the selfish (or pragmatic?) route. I do have an element of sympathy with him there - but it is only an element. 

52 minutes ago, the_bully_wee said:

I would agree that Clay's behaviour towards the various tape subjects can at times be a bit inconsistent, but that's probably down to his own personal trauma/grief, jealousy when it comes to the guys and remorse regarding his bottling/failure to read the signs when it came to the clear connection between him and Hannah. If that had materialised into something serious, it probably would've saved her or at the very least alleviated her torment. I can understand why he's so slow at getting through the tapes as the others are probably just curious to know what they've done/how what they did affected her so badly, while Clay is miles ahead of the rest in terms of his connection to Hannah, how well he knows her and how often he sees her due to their work. I wouldn't agree with you on Ryan, Zach and the counsellor in their own ways ignoring her obvious cries for help being "minor indiscretions" either. 

I agree with what you say regarding Clay; I wasn't intending it particularly as a specific criticism of the show, more just some general commentary. I just think some accounts of the show have glossed over some of the hypocrisy and entitlement occasionally evident in Clay's character.  

More broadly, however, Clay is a good character. 

1 hour ago, the_bully_wee said:

Part of the reason why I love the show so much is the debate it has provoked, particularly around the tough issues it covers. Love it or hate it, it's good to have an excuse to discuss these sensitive topics. 

Absolutely. Although I thought they could have done a better job with elements of the discussion around mental health and illness, the show has very many strengths. It is good at exploring the harm of jock sexism and misogyny, for example. The characters are also played very well - special mention for Hannah's mother here, whose grief is almost palpable. 

Overall, I did really enjoy it (if that is possibly the right word when dealing with such issues). It must have done something right if I got through all the episodes in well under a week! If there is a second series, I will undoubtedly be watching it. 

[TheGoon]

12 hours ago, DrewDon said:

What you say here is entirely fair and I would not challenge pretty much any of it - and, to be honest, this is a relatively minor quibble of mine. I just thought that making Hannah a bit more, well, 'socially unacceptable' might just have made the show - and her character - a little bit more 'authentic' (or more real, perhaps). Hannah has many strengths as a character, I should add, but I just wondered whether there was maybe a bit of a missed opportunity there. 

I am obviously not promoting the idea that girls like Hannah would not fall victim to bullying and cruelty of the nature documented in this show; they absolutely can and do - especially of a sexual nature, which I should say that I think the series broadly does a good job of portraying. I probably should have been a bit clearer about that in my first post. 

I understand what DrewDon is getting at. Hannah wasn't portrayed as a social pariah yet she seemed to have the same issues/feeling of helplessness one would have. I can only assume it was in an effort to relate to more younger girls. Girls that are nowhere near cheerleader popular, but at least have acquaintances. They diminished in numbers, but she was still friendly with people and still ended up at a party. Hannah being a complete loner would have been a bit too stereotypical and I think something would've been lost.

[The Real Saints]

I was mildly irritated when she complained about being voted 'the best ass', then tried to justify her annoyance by saying to Clay, ''How would you feel if you were voted 'the worst biceps'?''.

Not really the same thing, m8.

[19QOS19]

I was mildly irritated when she complained about being voted 'the best ass', then tried to justify her annoyance by saying to Clay, ''How would you feel if you were voted 'the worst biceps'?''.
Not really the same thing, m8.

It probably is a pretty similar thing tbf. Probably better if we had a girl on here to give an explanation as there is a good chance I could be about to make a massive tit out of myself here but:-

I think she got so riled about being voted best bum due to boys being such creeps and from that point on just focussing on that. Bryce feeling her up being an example. He had no interest in what she had to say, he just objectified her. People constantly leering at her in the corridor being another example. I don't imagine that would be a pleasant feeling tbh. Contrary to what these stupid reality shows portray I don't think the average female is comfortable flaunting their body parts.

It was as if she lost her identity and from then on was seen as 'the girl with the best arse'.

I'd say the comparison she makes with Clay's biceps is a fair one because if he had that title it would draw people's attention to them: "oh god they are actually pretty pathetic arms aren't they?!"

One appears to be negative and one may appear to be a compliment but I think both would have the same kind of demeaning effect on the subject.

[The Real Saints]

12 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

It probably is a pretty similar thing tbf. Probably better if we had a girl on here to give an explanation as there is a good chance I could be about to make a massive tit out of myself here but:-

I think she got so riled about being voted best bum due to boys being such creeps and from that point on just focussing on that. Bryce feeling her up being an example. He had no interest in what she had to say, he just objectified her. People constantly leering at her in the corridor being another example. I don't imagine that would be a pleasant feeling tbh. Contrary to what these stupid reality shows portray I don't think the average female is comfortable flaunting their body parts.

It was as if she lost her identity and from then on was seen as 'the girl with the best arse'.

I'd say the comparison she makes with Clay's biceps is a fair one because if he had that title it would draw people's attention to them: "oh god they are actually pretty pathetic arms aren't they?!"

One appears to be negative and one may appear to be a compliment but I think both would have the same kind of demeaning effect on the subject.
 

 

 

Excellent post, my man. I'm a bit of a misogynist and it affected my enjoyment at times.

[19QOS19]

[the_bully_wee]

On 2017-5-3 at 01:55, DrewDon said:

What you say here is entirely fair and I would not challenge pretty much any of it - and, to be honest, this is a relatively minor quibble of mine. I just thought that making Hannah a bit more, well, 'socially unacceptable' might just have made the show - and her character - a little bit more 'authentic' (or more real, perhaps). Hannah has many strengths as a character, I should add, but I just wondered whether there was maybe a bit of a missed opportunity there. 

I am obviously not promoting the idea that girls like Hannah would not fall victim to bullying and cruelty of the nature documented in this show; they absolutely can and do - especially of a sexual nature, which I should say that I think the series broadly does a good job of portraying. I probably should have been a bit clearer about that in my first post. 

I don't disagree with you, but on the other hand I think the production team were trying to get across the message that, even if you are someone like Hannah with what at the outset appears to be every attribute a young woman could hope to have, mental health issues can still befall you and take over/ruin your life. I suppose each viewer's interpretation of it is different.

On 2017-5-3 at 01:55, DrewDon said:

Without the tapes, unless Hannah or Justin had spoken to Jessica personally (or Bryce had suddenly grown a conscience), it is entirely possible that Jessica would never have found out. Hannah is, however, arguably the second most responsible person for Jessica's suffering - second only to their mutual rapist, Bryce. Hannah is prepared to expose Jessica's rape to listeners without the consent or even knowledge of the victim; that is arguably a vastly more objectionable act than anything on the tapes outwith Bryce's. She victimised herself in Jessica's rape, but it was never her trauma to own or dictate. 

It comes off as disgusting, and that's precisely what I initially thought myself, however I then realised that there really was no obvious way for Hannah to go about "leaking it" in a different manner, since Jessica hated her from the moment Alex's list was spread about. She'd undoubtedly have rebuffed Hannah, perhaps worse, particularly considering the fact that she's completely adamant she wasn't raped (and besides Hannah's accusations, had no other reason to believe she had been) until the latter stages of the series despite almost everyone having heard the tapes in their entirety.

[Kyle]

6 hours ago, The Real Saints said:

I was mildly irritated when she complained about being voted 'the best ass', then tried to justify her annoyance by saying to Clay, ''How would you feel if you were voted 'the worst biceps'?''.

Not really the same thing, m8.

I actually did vote you 'the worst biceps'.

 

[The Real Saints]

27 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I actually did vote you 'the worst biceps'.

 

Well, that's a bit rude. I've spent three days attempting to lift 1kg weights. Obviously a big fat waste of time.

[19QOS19]

Well, that's a bit rude. I've spent three days attempting to lift 1kg weights. Obviously a big fat waste of time.

Don't rise to it TRS. Just tell him you're not bothered because at least you won the "Biggest Cock" category.


B)

[Kyle]

8 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

Don't rise to it TRS. Just tell him you're not bothered because at least you won the "Biggest Cock" category.


B)

 

Objectification. 

[the_bully_wee]

15 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

Don't rise to it TRS. Just tell him you're not bothered because at least you won the "Biggest Cock" category.


B)

 

Just make sure you make your move before he ends up feeling like Hannah does.

[19QOS19]

Just make sure you make your move before he ends up feeling like Hannah does.

Shit, aye. That wouldn't be nice for his parents. I reckon it would have cost Hannah's parents a fortune to re-floor their flooded bathroom.

[DanMc99]

On 04/05/2017 at 10:07, The Real Saints said:

I was mildly irritated when she complained about being voted 'the best ass', then tried to justify her annoyance by saying to Clay, ''How would you feel if you were voted 'the worst biceps'?''.

Not really the same thing, m8.

that irritated me too , almost like a young feminist , at that age you really would prefer to have the best than the worst.

[paul-r-cfc]

Just make sure you make your move before he ends up feeling like Hannah does.

'Kyle, welcome to your tape'

[paul-r-cfc]

Also, second season has been confirmed. A cryptic teaser trailer just showing the school, the Bakers' shop etc and saying something about their story not being over

[Thistle_do_nicely]

I'm really wary of how they can make this second season work - I think they've left somuch open-ended that it does make sense to tie up what happens to the characters, but I have a feeling they'll try to make another 13 episodes when they'd be better off making it a shorter season. I'll watch whatever they do and I'll try to keep an open mind, I suppose. Show is a terrific watch although it didn't half enjoy hitting you in the feels as often as it possibly could...

Spoiler

I'm almost certain Alex shoots himself with his cop dads pistol; Tyler takes his photo down after a flashback of Alex sticking up for him when he was being pinned against a locker - Tyler may also have heard on the news at that point that Alex had shot himself and, even if he was planning on killing Alex himself, decided that he didn't need to be a target anymore.

Spoiler

Jeff is far and away the best human being on the show and is a total bro, with Tony a close second (heart is absolutely in the right place and his decision making is reasonable enough, but he should have told Hannah's parents about the tapes sooner)

 

[the jambo-rocker]

Best way I can describe it as a good binge watch.

There was so much I both loved and hated about it, but the entire time from the moment those two boots did a self absorbed selfie in front of Hannah's locker right at the start of the first episode, I found myself thinking MUST GET TO HANNAH'S DEATH, DONT CARE FOR EATING OR SLEEPING AND HOPEFULLY THOSE TWO WEE COWS GET BOOTED IN THE PIE.

Fair fucks for bringing 'A 1,000 times' by Hamilton Leithauser into it. Bloody effing tune.

[Brummie Clyde]

I quite enjoyed it, did find Hannah a bit irritating though. 

Does seem like they will do a second series of it.

[capt_oats]

Still feel quite weird about a second season tbh.