Th1rteen R3asons Why

[TheGoon]

I was really frustrated with Clay at times, the bit in the cinema in particular when Hannah asks if she should call the other guy, and he's like "Yeah" had me nearly shouting at the telly. Simillarly, with the scene when he finally kisses her. Initially I thought he was a fucking idiot for leaving her, when it was evident something was very wrong, but he was nervous. If a lassie I'd attempted to shag started screaming at me to go away I'd probobaly be out of there even quicker than him, wether I loved her or not, so I'm probobaly breing harsh on him there. The scene where he gives the monologue of what he should've said at the time was heartbreaking. 

I really want to watch more, but there isn't any more, and I'm not convinved I want a second series without Hannah. 

[Kyle]

The suicide scene will live with me for a very long time. Thoroughly enjoyed the series but it's not one I'm particularly keen to revisit in the future,

[the_bully_wee]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

I didn't know what to make of Clay. I loved his integrity throughout and respected him for it but his hesitation and complete cluelessness towards Hannah irritated me at times. It clearly annoyed him though as he clearly felt guilt about his lack of action and maybe that was the whole point.

Back to the show. What did Zach do? Did I miss something? I thought he was a decent guy. Justin kicked it all off and came across as a total dick but I ended up sympathising with him a fair amount. I don't know if I should feel bad about that.

I think a second season is a must. I wish they had put it all into one season but it surely has to have a second and I hope that's all we get. Please don't drag the arse out of it.

Bryce needs to get what's coming to him and no one has mentioned Alex being hospitalised. We've been told he took a gun to himself but for me it's Tyler's handy work. We saw the guns and he then took Alex's picture down. That could be something the next season focusses on?

Just going to whack all of the following into a spoiler to save folk from them as best I can.

 

 

Clay is a fantastic character and was played brilliantly. At the party he clearly seemed to "get it together" with Hannah with the help of Jeff and also some Dutch courage, but as above, surely any person in his situation after the kiss would have given someone they care deeply about space. My personal theory is that the death of Jeff had a marked effect on Clay which, combined with his confusion/sadness about Hannah's behaviour that night, ultimately led to him acting uncharacteristically (particularly towards her, as seen when he frostily talks to her about returning her work uniform and snaps at her in school for making the car crash "all about her" when she tries to speak to him about it).

Zach is a funny one as he's clearly a decent guy with good intentions, but I think he's well worth a tape for firstly acting bitterly in the face of rejection and binning Hannah's daily anonymous compliments/cartoons from Clay, and secondly reading the note in which Hannah pours her heart out to him and staying totally silent about it. Justin is obviously a bit of a dick but I think his heart is in the right place (he wanted to protect Jessica from a brutal truth, rather than avoid implicating Bryce I think) and he's clearly had a tough upbringing, so a sympathetic view towards him is understandable.

I think, with the way they've left it (specifically, saying Alex is "critical" and not dead [how did he f**k up a shot to the head? I don't think Tyler shot him as when he takes down Alex's photo it follows a flashback to the latter standing up for the former] and also depicting Tyler with his cache of guns [school shoot-up is my theory]), they will definitely go for a second series, particularly given the show's success. Personally I would've called it a wrap without those plot points included - there's fairly inadmissible evidence of Bryce raping Hannah and a likely further testimony between Justin/Jessica, so he'd likely go to jail. If they somehow live up to the first season with a second then that's absolutely as far as it should go. Any further madness could be confined to a spin-off.

I've seen a lot of people saying that the show glamorises suicide, and even before the absolutely brutal and graphic scene of Hannah slitting her wrists it's something I definitely didn't agree with. The scene in question is one of the toughest and most upsetting things I've ever watched - I don't understand criticism of it being so brutal as that's exactly what it is, a horrible, undignified and painful way to die for someone who didn't have to die. This show is about as far from glamorous as it gets, and does a fantastic job of tackling a range of taboo issues which are often shied away from or poorly/"safely" depicted in visual media. Another opinion I've seen is that none of the "reasons" are believable ones for someone ending their life: a case of missing the point spectacularly. The whole progression of Hannah's character is based on a steady decline featuring numerous betrayals and disappointments against the backdrop of a strained family, which all serve to cause a spiral into depression and a state of mind whereby she feels she is a burden to all who know her. 

Overall, I thought it was an utterly brilliant show with a surprisingly high quality of acting. I was wary of starting it at first because of the general premise, the sort of people I saw watching it and what they were saying about it, but I'm really glad I went for it. I can't remember seeing a programme where such a high proportion of recurring characters have such good development, and they've done really well not to play to the lazy high school stereotypes which so many teen-aimed films and TV series do (with the exception of Skye, who felt a bit forced). They've somehow managed to achieve a dark-arts-style balance between all the grim morbidity of the series and a genuine sense of hope and optimism for Hannah and Clay, despite the fact that you're well aware that it will only go wrong for them from the outset. It's been a few days now since I've finished and I still feel crestfallen about it. The soundtrack is also superb and I've been listening to it on Spotify for a few days now. A pair of songs played during the winter dance are particular favourites; "that one slow song" and another played at a point I can't remember in the same episode. I'll probably end up watching it through again in a few days and being as much, if not more, of a greeting wreck on second watching.

[MSU]

Top post from the_bully_wee, there.

[Kyle]

The bully wee just absolutely nailed the show in that spoiler. What a post.

[MSU]

Lord Huron's The Night We Met (aka That One Slow Song) is just amazing. Absolutely perfect for the show.

[the_bully_wee]

Cheers, lads. The boy TheGoon above can attest to me not being the most (publicly, at least) emotional type, but this programme had me in bits to an even greater extent than The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which I'd recommend to anyone who enjoyed this (although I'd advocate waiting a while to allow yourself to return to some sort of happy state of mind).

14 minutes ago, MSU said:

Lord Huron's The Night We Met (aka That One Slow Song) is just amazing. Absolutely perfect for the show.

Absolutely. The lyrics are barely noticeable when you're caught up in watching the show and hoping that they fall deeply in love and it's all just a sick dream, but on second listen they fit wonderfully.

As an aside, one of the most glowing signs of Clay's character for me came at the dance. You see him looking around at all the jocks/other guys with their hands incredibly low on their partners' hips, and on seeing this he raises his to Hannah's waist. The sheer frustration you experience every time they have a moment alone, and neither have the gumption to say or act on how they feel at that moment just kills you as a viewer. 

[19QOS19]

*** SPOILERS AGAIN!!! ***

Are spoiler tags working again? They've not worked on the app when I put them up and any time I see them it just say's "spoiler" and the message appears.

Anyway, just in response to bully_wee_villa. I did initially think Tyler had taken Alex off the Hitlist but the fact Alex isn't dead from a headshot makes me think Tyler was hiding in a hedge (as usual) and has ballsed up the shot. Alex will likely have access to his dad's gun. I wonder if it was intentionally left that way as I don't think it's clear either way.

[Internet Citizen]

Great post bully wee. Nailed most of what I felt about the show too.

It really did have an effect on me, similar to what most posters on this thread have said. I was surprised with how involved I got.

I found myself rooting for Hannah (and Clay and Hannah) on a few occasions but also knowing the final outcome, which was quite hard to reconcile at times.

[MarkoRaj]

Easily the best thing I've watched in ages.
Also, as an aside, the soundtrack was outstanding; Codeine, The Cure, Mary Chain, Joy Division, Chromatics, Elliot Smith.
Agree that they should just leave it as is though. A second series seems completely unnecessary.

Annoyed at the inclusion of a shitty codeine cover of New Order's Atmosphere which is one of my favourite songs of all time and would have worked a whole lot better imo

Agree that the rest of the music was good.

I didn't really like the show. The whole tapes thing just seemed like a plot device to drag things out but didn't really make any sense otherwise. I wouldn't have minded just listening to the tapes and watching flashbacks rather than them trying to have it running it alongside a mess of a story about a ridiculous law suit and some weird cover up shenanigans. I couldn't really get over the massive conflict of interest that was his maw being the lawyer for the school, that was just annoyingly unrealistic.

[capt_oats]

 

Annoyed at the inclusion of a shitty codeine cover of New Order's Atmosphere which is one of my favourite songs of all time and would have worked a whole lot better imo

 

Agree that the rest of the music was good.

 

Joy Division.

[MarkoRaj]

 
Joy Division.

Yeh weird, I was thinking of a New Order song as I wrote that.

There was also a cover of the Killing Moon but it fitted slightly more than the Atmosphere one. The original would have been better though, I don't know why they didn't just play that.

[capt_oats]

33 minutes ago, MarkoRaj said:

Yeh weird, I was thinking of a New Order song as I wrote that.

There was also a cover of the Killing Moon but it fitted slightly more than the Atmosphere one. The original would have been better though, I don't know why they didn't just play that.

 

They might not have been able to get the sync for it.

[19QOS19]

It's pretty common on Netflix. Still Game doesn't have any of the original songs that were on the DVD's. And on Only Fools and Horses the other day when they become millionaires they play the same song but by another artist.

[capt_oats]

19 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

It's pretty common on Netflix. Still Game doesn't have any of the original songs that were on the DVD's. And on Only Fools and Horses the other day when they become millionaires they play the same song but by another artist.

It'll depend on the terms of the original licenses tbh and in what context or intended usage they were signed off on. In the case of Still Game and Only Fools... it may well have been the case that the license only covered the context of airing on the original broadcast network. It's not Netflix but House ended up replacing Teardrop by Massive Attack on the DVD versions IIRC.

In the case of 13 Reasons Why it may simply have been a case of budget and picking which originals they wanted to use. It's worth mentioning that they've used the original Joy Division 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' on the soundtrack so it'd be surprising if 'Atmosphere' was blocked as the rights on master/publishing sides are presumably held by the same people. Who knows, there are a ton of reasons why they may have ended up using the versions they have tbh. The cover versions may simply have been the preference of the music supervisor.

Back to the show though, I battered through it over the weekend it first went up on Netflix and I can honestly say that it's a show that I've actually thought about pretty much every day since, not least Hannah's suicide scene. I genuinely can't think of a series that's had that sort of effect on me.

[the_bully_wee]

14 hours ago, MarkoRaj said:

I didn't really like the show. The whole tapes thing just seemed like a plot device to drag things out but didn't really make any sense otherwise. I wouldn't have minded just listening to the tapes and watching flashbacks rather than them trying to have it running it alongside a mess of a story about a ridiculous law suit and some weird cover up shenanigans. I couldn't really get over the massive conflict of interest that was his maw being the lawyer for the school, that was just annoyingly unrealistic.

 

It's definitely a bit of a polarising show. Some folk I know absolutely love it, others just didn't like it much at all and a select few think it was okay, but have some issues with it. The lawsuit is, of course, ridiculous, but in a US legal system where you can bring a lawsuit against someone for just about anything, it's understandable. Particularly when you consider that Hannah's parents have no idea whatsoever why their daughter killed herself and seem to have no other way of finding out.

I agree with you RE: Clay's mum being the lawyer defending the school. That was a bit forced and probably only really included to add in another conflicted character, which was unnecessary IMO. However, in the context you can kind of understand her decision not to drop the case.

On the tapes as a plot device, I really can't see how they could've told the story any other way, aside from a lengthy suicide letter or series of letters. Tapes themselves have a certain romanticism and personalism attached to them, and the delivery of her story through her own voice would surely carry more impact than doing so by (a) letter/s. I didn't really think too much about the tapes and just kind of accepted them for what they are; a vehicle to deliver the story. I have to say that I really enjoyed the "present-day" storylines involving the folk on the tapes, particularly their combined determination to both stop Clay from doing what he ultimately does and protect their own images at all costs. It's an interesting subtext that they are all happy to pass off Jessica's obliviousness about her rape as evidence of Hannah having lied, which makes the likes of Courtney and Marcus in particular seem innocent to some of the others - despite everyone on the tapes knowing fine well that they did exactly what they were accused of.

[TheGoon]

For those not on social media, season two is pretty much confirmed to be on the way. Still at the writing stage but it'll be here at some point. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I obviously want to watch more, and want to see how some of the loose ends are tied up, but I fear it'd end up becoming just another US school drama. Without the element of Hannah and her flashbacks, as well as the denouement that was being built up to - there's just something missing. I don't doubt they'd incorporate her via dreams or whatever, but it isn't the same.

[19QOS19]

I think the writers have made a balls up by not wrapping it up in one season. I know some are satisfied with the ending but I'm not. Not knowing if Bryce will be arrested and imprisoned for his sickening acts, not knowing the outcome of the case and how it will effect everyone, not knowing who shot Alex, not knowing what Tyler's end game is.

The annoying thing is that those issues are beyond the point of the story but they're so prominent that I want to know the outcome.

I've a fear they're going to ruin a very good series and go too far with it. Hannah has to feature in the next one but I can't see how she will. My only idea is that there are more tapes than we're aware of and she expands but again I don't know if that would really work.

Loving the idea of a second season but given how good American TV is at ruining a good show by airing too many episodes I'll be extremely shocked (hopefully FWIW) if I enjoy the next season anywhere near as much as the first.

[DrewDon]

I finished watching this yesterday evening, having started in the middle of last week. On one hand, it is a very gripping series - I could probably have watched all thirteen installments in one sitting without complaint; on the other hand, I do have some issues with, amongst other things, certain elements of the characterisation. More generally, I also feel as if the series could have gone further in examining and discussing the intricacies of mental health and illness. 

The construction of Hannah's character is, in my opinion, flawed - and possibly even a wasted opportunity. She is intelligent, presentable, articulate and self-assured; indeed, she glides through some otherwise complex aspects of adolescence with almost consummate ease. I did not feel like much of the language used around Hannah's character - that intended to create her in the image of the 'loner' or the 'weirdo' - matched with this reality. Whilst it would be nonsensical to suggest that girls like Hannah do not suffer bullying and intimidation, it did feel as if the character had been constructed primarily on the basis of being palatable to the viewer over all else.

Hannah commits one of the most unforgivable and disgraceful acts on the show, which has largely gone unmentioned in reviews that I have read. Firstly, she makes no attempt to prevent Jessica from being raped by Bryce, although she is understandably scared and upset at this stage; however, there is then no excuse for exploiting and weaponising a rape merely as an element of her own suffering and story rather than as a life-changing and deeply traumatising event of its own for the victim. Unless I missed it, it is never openly acknowledged as such; Jessica's tragedy is relegated to being a mere constituent part of Hannah’s story. Hannah is also guilty of casual misogyny herself, especially towards Jessica; the ‘then you became a cheerleader’ line comes to mind here - Skye also falls into this trap when she sees Clay with Sheri, incidentally. It is somewhat of a recurring theme. I felt as if there was an almost ongoing contrast between the 'innocent' Hannah and other girls (particularly Jessica), which is problematic for quite a few reasons.

I have mixed feelings about Clay, to be honest. On one hand, he is a good protagonist and it is difficult not to feel sympathy for his decision to leave the bedroom at Jessica's party, for instance. But, on the other hand, he is also guilty of basing his ‘revenge’ primarily on who fancied Hannah rather than who caused her the most severe mental and/or physical harm. He is particularly aggressive to Zach, for instance, who asked Hannah out but committed - relative to some others on the tapes, at least - minor indiscretions. Clay listening to the tapes at his own leisure, although it works well for the structure of the series, reinforces his ownership over Hannah and her story; just because he is not a jock does not mean that he does not display some very 'entitled' behaviour throughout (similar could and should be said of Tyler).

I certainly agree with other contributors to this thread that the second half of the series is stronger than the first. It did feel as if the ending is poised for another series, but there is a part of me which feels it would just be better left at where it is.

[the_bully_wee]

1 hour ago, DrewDon said:

I finished watching this yesterday evening, having started in the middle of last week. On one hand, it is a very gripping series - I could probably have watched all thirteen installments in one sitting without complaint; on the other hand, I do have some issues with, amongst other things, certain elements of the characterisation. More generally, I also feel as if the series could have gone further in examining and discussing the intricacies of mental health and illness. 

The construction of Hannah's character is, in my opinion, flawed - and possibly even a wasted opportunity. She is intelligent, presentable, articulate and self-assured; indeed, she glides through some otherwise complex aspects of adolescence with almost consummate ease. I did not feel like much of the language used around Hannah's character - that intended to create her in the image of the 'loner' or the 'weirdo' - matched with this reality. Whilst it would be nonsensical to suggest that girls like Hannah do not suffer bullying and intimidation, it did feel as if the character had been constructed primarily on the basis of being palatable to the viewer over all else.

Hannah commits one of the most unforgivable and disgraceful acts on the show, which has largely gone unmentioned in reviews that I have read. Firstly, she makes no attempt to prevent Jessica from being raped by Bryce, although she is understandably scared and upset at this stage; however, there is then no excuse for exploiting and weaponising a rape merely as an element of her own suffering and story rather than as a life-changing and deeply traumatising event of its own for the victim. Unless I missed it, it is never openly acknowledged as such; Jessica's tragedy is relegated to being a mere constituent part of Hannah’s story. Hannah is also guilty of casual misogyny herself, especially towards Jessica; the ‘then you became a cheerleader’ line comes to mind here - Skye also falls into this trap when she sees Clay with Sheri, incidentally. It is somewhat of a recurring theme. I felt as if there was an almost ongoing contrast between the 'innocent' Hannah and other girls (particularly Jessica), which is problematic for quite a few reasons.

I have mixed feelings about Clay, to be honest. On one hand, he is a good protagonist and it is difficult not to feel sympathy for his decision to leave the bedroom at Jessica's party, for instance. But, on the other hand, he is also guilty of basing his ‘revenge’ primarily on who fancied Hannah rather than who caused her the most severe mental and/or physical harm. He is particularly aggressive to Zach, for instance, who asked Hannah out but committed - relative to some others on the tapes, at least - minor indiscretions. Clay listening to the tapes at his own leisure, although it works well for the structure of the series, reinforces his ownership over Hannah and her story; just because he is not a jock does not mean that he does not display some very 'entitled' behaviour throughout (similar could and should be said of Tyler).

I certainly agree with other contributors to this thread that the second half of the series is stronger than the first. It did feel as if the ending is poised for another series, but there is a part of me which feels it would just be better left at where it is.

While I agree with elements of what you say, chiefly that the show could've delved deeper into Hannah's assessment of her own state of mind, I have a few queries about/counterarguments against what you say. 

I, personally, don't think Hannah was initially displayed to the watcher as a loner or a weirdo; rather someone having difficulty settling into new surroundings whose reputation gradually declines to untenable levels to the point where she, to both herself and her peers, is seen as a loner and a weirdo. I don't think there's anything particularly objectionable about that.

Hannah herself expresses her remorse/confusion regarding why she did nothing while Jessica was raped, but I'd agree that they could've played more on her guilt regarding it being a factor in her depression. What I don't agree with is the notion that Hannah solely uses the rape as a plot point in her story - if not for the tapes, then who would've known about it besides Justin and Bryce? Would it ever have come to light? I think they give enough coverage to Jessica in the later episodes to show just how much the revelation that firstly she was raped, and secondly that her boyfriend sanctioned it, crushes her. The tapes, for me, are as much about exposing her peers' cruel actions, words and their lies as telling the story of why she committed suicide.

I would agree that Clay's behaviour towards the various tape subjects can at times be a bit inconsistent, but that's probably down to his own personal trauma/grief, jealousy when it comes to the guys and remorse regarding his bottling/failure to read the signs when it came to the clear connection between him and Hannah. If that had materialised into something serious, it probably would've saved her or at the very least alleviated her torment. I can understand why he's so slow at getting through the tapes as the others are probably just curious to know what they've done/how what they did affected her so badly, while Clay is miles ahead of the rest in terms of his connection to Hannah, how well he knows her and how often he sees her due to their work. I wouldn't agree with you on Ryan, Zach and the counsellor in their own ways ignoring her obvious cries for help being "minor indiscretions" either. 

Part of the reason why I love the show so much is the debate it has provoked, particularly around the tough issues it covers. Love it or hate it, it's good to have an excuse to discuss these sensitive topics.