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POLL - Should Junior Clubs be part of the Pyramid Structure?

POLL - Is it Time Junior Clubs Were Part Of The Pyramid?  

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I'd like to see your empirical evidence regarding gates in juniors v the pyramid.

I doubt for example that Bo'ness, bonnyrigg, Linlithgow or Kelty would attract bigger crowds in tiers 4,5,6 of the pyramid. I think crowds would actually fall.


Have a look at the gates Edinburgh have gotten since getting promoted, with the increase in coverage and higher standard of football there's no reason why crowds wouldn't go up.

It's became apparent that they're are some properly shite fans "supporting" there club, imagine not following them anymore because they had the brass neck to try improve themselves. Any fans ditching there club for that aren't to be missed, they'll have Bugged out eventually for some other shite excuse.

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6 hours ago, Grant228 said:

 


Have a look at the gates Edinburgh have gotten since getting promoted, with the increase in coverage and higher standard of football there's no reason why crowds wouldn't go up.

 

Isn't part of that down to novelty, though? Opposition fans who maybe don't travel regularly away will be making a point of going to see the new team in the league, groundhoppers will be wanting to "tick" it, and there will be a lot of casual walk-up support. Of course crowds were always going to go up this season - if you're going from playing the likes of the University sides who literally don't bring a soul to playing established League sides who'll maybe bring 100 away fans, there's 100 of a jump right there.

Good on them, but it remains to be seen how much genuine new support they've attracted. Better to judge it after two or three years of SPFL football, especially if they end up being perennial League 2 strugglers.

It's no different to a new team joining the Juniors...the first couple of seasons when Clydebank came back they were pulling in some remarkable attendances knocking on four figures, but that's stabilised down to a regular few hundred now. Same with Gartcairn - their first couple of friendlies suggested there was a huge latent support, but once they'd bedded in their attendances have settled down to double-digit crowds more usual for the division they're playing in.

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Have a look at the gates Edinburgh have gotten since getting promoted, with the increase in coverage and higher standard of football there's no reason why crowds wouldn't go up.

It's became apparent that they're are some properly shite fans "supporting" there club, imagine not following them anymore because they had the brass neck to try improve themselves. Any fans ditching there club for that aren't to be missed, they'll have Bugged out eventually for some other shite excuse.


Edinburgh didn't play in the juniors - I'd fully expect them to pull in more in the league as opposed to the lowland league and the east of Scotland league.

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1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

Isn't part of that down to novelty, though?

There is also the Meadowbank Thistle angle in their case and some old fans of that club seem to have come out of the woodwork again. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened with Spartans.

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1 hour ago, BS7 said:

 


Edinburgh didn't play in the juniors - I'd fully expect them to pull in more in the league as opposed to the lowland league and the east of Scotland league.

 

Which is the point I was making when you asked for evidence. As teams progress througha pyramid, their crowds will go up despite the fact that costs will probably go up in line with the tier. What I have seen on here is a fair bit of "I like paying  £6 or £3 and if my team went into the SPFL I wouldn't go and watch them at the costs attached to that level." 

What I said was that for every one of those folk, more people do come along because the crowds in SPFL are almost universally better than in the juniors. 

I never said that crowds would necessarily go up as a result of moving to the (current) Lowland League. But they may do if the Lowland League were a genuine representation of the very best of non league football - which it isn't at the moment. 

And prices in the Lowland League are broadly similar to top flight juniors at the moment so.

The challenge for junior teams is getting themselves fit for purpose. 

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4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There is also the Meadowbank Thistle angle in their case and some old fans of that club seem to have come out of the woodwork again. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened with Spartans.

If/when Spartans go up, the Academy will have some bearing on their potential fanbase if the old Jesuit adage is anything to go by.

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12 hours ago, Grant228 said:


It's became apparent that they're are some properly shite fans "supporting" there club, imagine not following them anymore because they had the brass neck to try improve themselves. Any fans ditching there club for that aren't to be missed, they'll have Bugged out eventually for some other shite excuse.

 

They're (we're?) not "shite", we're just looking for different things than you are. I want Linlithgow to be successful, but not at any price. For instance, if a Brooks Mileson figure came in, bought the club and started signing pros, I wouldn't be back. I absolutely hate that type of club. Man City, Chelsea, Hearts under Romanov - football clubs as playthings for millionaires and billionaires, cheered on by fools who can't see the inevitable coming because they're too blinded by the odd trinket. If that's what matters then we should all just follow the OF, Barcelona or whoever. 

I will follow the Rose whether they're successful or not - they're utter gash this season but I'm still going to the same number of games as usual. I want them to be successful, but that's not the most important bit. The important bit is that they're part of the community in the town, and that Prestonfield is a great place to go on a Saturday afternoon myself, with friends or with my kids. And a big part of that is that it remains affordable for everyone who wants to go. Football was always the people's game and if you price out the unemployed and the low waged, I'll go elsewhere.

I'm a big fan of the way the Rose have tried to improve themselves btw, like getting their SFA licence. I worry a little about the future though, because paying £16 to watch them play Alloa is a lot less appealing to me than paying £6 to watch them play Kelty. Any Saturday or evening I'm free and the Rose are at home I go, and I don't think about the cost. At £16 I'd probably only go to the bigger games. 

I just checked and it would be £32 to take my daughter to a game at Dunfermline after her next birthday. There's no way I'd even consider paying that to watch league football. Each to their own - but at that cost there are fans who are priced out.

 

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On 4/8/2017 at 09:15, The Mantis said:

Good points. You don't get frisked though. The only time I've ever been frisked is at English games. I think your problem is with the ugly sisters not with seniors as a whole. I used to watch the other erse cheek from you but I wised up many, many years ago. ICT fans and County fans can drink together before a game no problem. A lot of the alcohol ban and segregation nonsense is due to the behaviour of the ugly sisters in the first place. Yes, seniors are overpriced but try paying £50+ in England where the standard is far higher but the entertainment isn't.

Since I can't get to ICT every week I pick my games. I like the juniors but I couldn't watch that level every week even for £6. People go on about £12 to watch League 2 when you can see Talbot or Pollok or Lithgae for £6. Fair enough, but for every Kilsyth v Bonnyrigg cup tie I've seen games, especially in the lower divisions, where the standard is woeful, they should have paid me £6. So let's not kid on that every Junior game is a bargain.

Well not frisked maybe, but you do always get your bag searched, and woe betide you if you have a bottle of diet coke in there. I've been to every ground in the top two divisions, not for either of the OF visiting, and it's always the same.

Prices in England may be worse, but prices in most of the rest of Europe are much better. We're mugs in this country.

I can understand that, as an ICT fan, Juniors is a big drop in standard. But really, once you drop below the full-time clubs, there's not a lot in it. Rose played Raith Rovers recently and I couldn't believe how bad they were - their midfielders were just lumps of meat with all the touch of an elephant. All they could do was bang it long to the forwards. Rose sliced them open at will and slightly less focussed defending and poor finishing was the difference between them. The top Junior clubs mostly try to play good football and it's a lot more entertaining than most of what you get in Leagues One and Two.

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I just checked and it would be £32 to take my daughter to a game at Dunfermline after her next birthday. There's no way I'd even consider paying that to watch league football. Each to their own - but at that cost there are fans who are priced out.
 


How old is your daughter like? If she's 12 or under she gets in for free, if she's 13 she can get a paper round and start paying her own way.

Just to confirm aswell, you've went for the most expensive tickets, you don't have to sit in the main stand, you could quite easily get in for £28 for you and your daughter.

At 13 she can then get a season ticket for 90 pounds which is perfectly reasonable, that's a fiver a game.


You can't expect anyone to take your post seriously when you can't get the basics right surely?

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The juniors as far as I can see have a pretty good regionalized pyramid. Maybe the seniors could speak to them for some tips, as the they don't seem to have a clue?


What is wrong with the current regionalisation? Its not the senior setups fault that the juniors don't seem to want to leave their own wee regions.

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8 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

 


How old is your daughter like? If she's 12 or under she gets in for free, if she's 13 she can get a paper round and start paying her own way.

Just to confirm aswell, you've went for the most expensive tickets, you don't have to sit in the main stand, you could quite easily get in for £28 for you and your daughter.

At 13 she can then get a season ticket for 90 pounds which is perfectly reasonable, that's a fiver a game.


You can't expect anyone to take your post seriously when you can't get the basics right surely?

 

You're quite right, £28. My bad. Still more for Dunfermline v Dumbarton than it costs to watch one of the dozen or so best rugby teams in the northern hemisphere, and three times as much as watching Junior football.

Personally I'm not a fan of 13 year olds working for money, but ok. She can graft instead of learning or exercising or playing with friends so that some of the worst full-time footballers in the country can play football. A great plan.

Is that the rationale for having different prices for under and over 12s? It seems pretty weird to me.

Or she can pay £3 to watch Linlithgow Rose. Probably a better plan.

The season tickets are only worth it if you're going to enough games, they only cover league games and don't cover league play-offs either.

Incidentally, the first Scottish Cup final I went to was in 1988, and tickets were £4 for adults and £1 for a child. It's now 1,100% more for a child to watch Dunfermline play a league game. Inflation since then would make it £2.59, so it's four times dearer in real terms. 

To me it's not worth it, but each to their own.

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2 hours ago, GordonS said:

Well not frisked maybe, but you do always get your bag searched, and woe betide you if you have a bottle of diet coke in there. I've been to every ground in the top two divisions, not for either of the OF visiting, and it's always the same.

Prices in England may be worse, but prices in most of the rest of Europe are much better. We're mugs in this country.

I can understand that, as an ICT fan, Juniors is a big drop in standard. But really, once you drop below the full-time clubs, there's not a lot in it. Rose played Raith Rovers recently and I couldn't believe how bad they were - their midfielders were just lumps of meat with all the touch of an elephant. All they could do was bang it long to the forwards. Rose sliced them open at will and slightly less focussed defending and poor finishing was the difference between them. The top Junior clubs mostly try to play good football and it's a lot more entertaining than most of what you get in Leagues One and Two.

Yes, you don't get frisked so let's not exaggerate :whistle 

Do you get to take your drinks into a pro rugby game or a rock gig? I reckon not. Anyway like most folk on p&b I'm not interested in rugby so the cost of it Is irrelevant.

Also I used to make the same arguments as you when I watched non league Caley play league sides back in the old days. The fact is the standard below the top few Superleague teams is poorer than all spfl divisions. If you played them every week you would soon find that out, as ICT found out. You raise your game for a massive cup tie and meanwhile the Rovers boss has to try and stop his players going out on the piss the night before. Motivation is 75% of football. Bottom line is, you still lost. Hardly any junior teams have taken a league scalp in 10 years. Even Talbot who are the benchmark have yet to beat anybody at all.

You say the entertainment is better than the bottom 2 divisions but I'll stick to my opinion, I couldn't watch Juniors week in, week out, sometimes even £6 is too much - although standard and entertainment are two different things. As you said, each to his own.

Edited by The Mantis

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What is wrong with the current regionalisation? Its not the senior setups fault that the juniors don't seem to want to leave their own wee regions.

 

I knew this clown couldn't keep his yap shut

 

It was a matter of time before he had to have his tuppence worth against the Juniors. Good to see you back Krusty.

 

 

882af0706b4953731c2c44b3843d9795.jpg

 

Wearing a big boy tie too ????????

 

 

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You're quite right, £28. My bad. Still more for Dunfermline v Dumbarton than it costs to watch one of the dozen or so best rugby teams in the northern hemisphere, and three times as much as watching Junior football.

Personally I'm not a fan of 13 year olds working for money, but ok. She can graft instead of learning or exercising or playing with friends so that some of the worst full-time footballers in the country can play football. A great plan.

Is that the rationale for having different prices for under and over 12s? It seems pretty weird to me.

Or she can pay £3 to watch Linlithgow Rose. Probably a better plan.

The season tickets are only worth it if you're going to enough games, they only cover league games and don't cover league play-offs either.

Incidentally, the first Scottish Cup final I went to was in 1988, and tickets were £4 for adults and £1 for a child. It's now 1,100% more for a child to watch Dunfermline play a league game. Inflation since then would make it £2.59, so it's four times dearer in real terms. 

To me it's not worth it, but each to their own.

Alternatively it cost £3 to get into Linlithgow yet currently would cost nothing to get into east end.

 

It is pretty normal to have different prices for different categories of fans.

 

You can argue over pricing at your agm's, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the pyramid.

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1 hour ago, The Mantis said:

Yes, you don't get frisked so let's not exaggerate :whistle 

Do you get to take your drinks into a pro rugby game or a rock gig? I reckon not.

Actually yes, you can take a bottle of juice into pro rugby and internationals. The rule at Murrayfield is a bottle up to 500ml is fine. You also don't get your bag searched going into Scotstoun. Glasgow Warriors attendances have quadrupled in the last 6-7 years, they're now much better supported than Partick Thistle and are looking to extend their ground again. Football's got a lot to learn from rugby. 

Players in Leagues One and Two may be slightly more effective than those in Junior Superleagues, but with few exceptions they sure as hell don't play more attractive or entertaining football. As for the Junior record against them, I've seen Rose beat Forfar, Bo'ness comfortably beat Queen's Park and Beith scare the bejeesus out of Airdrie. You're right, they're bound to raise their game but I know the standard's good enough. 

I don't know why you feel the need to take the hump at what I'm saying btw. The point of my first post in this thread is that I wonder if fans of Junior clubs are looking for something categorically different from those following big clubs. Linlithgow Rose could never be an Ross County or ICT, they always had serious potential, but Rose could be an Annan, Peterhead or Elgin. I'd rather pay £9 for me and my daughter to watch Rose play Kelty and Bonnyrigg, with all the freedoms you get with non-league football, than £18-19 to watch them play Albion Rovers and Arbroath with the restrictions. No offence to those clubs but being in a league with them would be nothing special for me. There's no right or better answer, I'm not criticising other people's choices, it's a personal opinion and it's each to their own.

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Incidentally, the first Scottish Cup final I went to was in 1988, and tickets were £4 for adults and £1 for a child. It's now 1,100% more for a child to watch Dunfermline play a league game. Inflation since then would make it £2.59, so it's four times dearer in real terms. 

The first Scottish international game I ever attended was V West Germany at Hampden in 1959. It cost 4/- (20p) for boys and not only did I get to see the incomparable John White and Dave McKay in action but Scotland won 3-2 as well!

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Incidentally, the first Scottish Cup final I went to was in 1988, and tickets were £4 for adults and £1 for a child. It's now 1,100% more for a child to watch Dunfermline play a league game. Inflation since then would make it £2.59, so it's four times dearer in real terms. 
The first Scottish international game I ever attended was V West Germany at Hampden in 1959. It cost 4/- (20p) for boys and not only did I get to see the incomparable John White and Dave McKay in action but Scotland won 3-2 as well!

I agree with point that cost has skyrocketed since i started watching in the 80s. Facilities have improved slightly since then as well!!!
John White The Ghost- Bonnyrigg legend

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882af0706b4953731c2c44b3843d9795.jpg
 
Wearing a big boy tie too ????????
 
 


Please, please tell me you are joking?

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3 hours ago, Grant228 said:

How old is your daughter like?

 

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3 hours ago, JakeSAFC said:

What is wrong with the current regionalisation? Its not the senior setups fault that the juniors don't seem to want to leave their own wee regions.

 

Okay, I'll bite.

There are two major problems:

1. Due to various historical reasons, whilst there is duplication with the east regions & (to a certain extent) the North & Highlands, there is a Western Juniors but no Western League since the 1920s (& hence why Arthurlie, Beith, Royal Albert & Vale of Leven are all Junior sides as they'd nowhere else to go), a South of Scotland league but no Southern Juniors. In other words you would get a very top heavy Highlands-Northern combine, a very large Eastern; leaving Western Juniors & the SoS who would sooner lick Throbber's crusty sock than amalgamate.

2. Some of the Junior sides & Senior sides are so hopelessly weak due to their geographical location or having more powerful neighbours in the "other" league any enforced amalgamation risks killing them stone dead or force them to start from scratch in the amateurs, & there's a reluctance from both sides to be party to this. The perennial bottom feeders of Lanarkshire being stuck in a league with the SoS clubs would soon send many from both into early graves - let alone those from further afield like Vale of Leven.

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1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Actually yes, you can take a bottle of juice into pro rugby and internationals. The rule at Murrayfield is a bottle up to 500ml is fine. You also don't get your bag searched going into Scotstoun. Glasgow Warriors attendances have quadrupled in the last 6-7 years, they're now much better supported than Partick Thistle and are looking to extend their ground again. Football's got a lot to learn from rugby. 

People are going to turn round and say "but rugger twats can behave themselves and football fans can't be trusted", however the same lessons could also be learned from English football, where you can have an affordable beer and you don't get violated for trying to take a can of coke into a match. 

If you could get a £3.50 pint at a Scottish game the crowds would suddenly re-discover their enthusiasm for the game.

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