POLL - Should Junior Clubs be part of the Pyramid Structure?

[GordonS]

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

Lowland league is the highest level of non league football at the moment in your area, none of the things you say you prefer would be any different in a pyramid system if the Rose were in Lowland league.

Yeah, I'm fine with merging with the Lowland League - I'd prefer just the eastern teams in it, but fair enough. But say we rose (no pun intended) to League Two - £12 to watch my team play Stirling, Clyde and Elgin? Or the wilds of Edinburgh City in that terrible stadium? That's a lot less attractive to me than paying £6 to watch them play Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Whitehill and Spartans.

[JakeSAFC]

I'd love my team to become top flight and win the occasional big trophy - as long as it doesn't cost much more and the ground doesn't become less safe or enjoyable for my kids. It'd also be nice to be in a league that we have more than a theoretical possibility of ever winning.
I was a Celtic fan until my late 20s, I saw them win leagues and cups, I saw then in the UEFA Cup final, I saw them beat Barcelona, Juventus, Milan, Liverpool, Man Utd, Lyon. But I had to spend too much time being herded like livestock, in the company of too many scumbags, and it took far, far too much of my money. The last straw was when they were charging £26 for a child's ticket for a European game. A child's ticket. If those had been the prices when I was growing up I could never have afforded to go in the first place. My mum couldn't have paid that. It's a disgrace and I don't want any part of it.
Premier league football is for people with a fair disposable income. Dads on low wages or benefits spending a large slice of their family income on football need to have a think about their priorities in life. If that's what people want then fine, each to their own. But lots and lots of people don't, and non-league football suits them nicely.
If it ever cost as much to watch Linltihgow Rose as it does to watch Ross County, and the experience is as bad, then I'll find something else to do with my Saturdays. I already watch a fair amount of rugby, I'd probably go see the Reds more. No joke.

It is obviously going to cost more if Linlithgow ever did become a side like County, the costs would be way more than being a non league side. Also don't get your argument about the ground being unsafe. County's ground is probably safer now than it was when they were a Highland League side.

Celtic are always going to overcharge, they have the fanbase to be able to do so, same with the ****. But I'd say £24 is not to expensive for a top flight game, youve got clubs in League 1 (Alloa) charging £16 ffs. The better the level the more expensive it is going to be.

If Linlithgow ever did reach Ross County's level, they'd need to join the pyramid system first, they would obviously need to charge more otherwise they'd go bust.

[GordonS]

11 minutes ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

It is obviously going to cost more if Linlithgow ever did become a side like County, the costs would be way more than being a non league side. Also don't get your argument about the ground being unsafe. County's ground is probably safer now than it was when they were a Highland League side.

Celtic are always going to overcharge, they have the fanbase to be able to do so, same with the ****. But I'd say £24 is not to expensive for a top flight game, youve got clubs in League 1 (Alloa) charging £16 ffs. The better the level the more expensive it is going to be.

If Linlithgow ever did reach Ross County's level, they'd need to join the pyramid system first, they would obviously need to charge more otherwise they'd go bust.

 

I don't think there can be many Premier league grounds in which it's safe for a group of 8 year olds to play football within sight of people watching the game. And I've no problems letting my 12 year old go to the Rose on her own, but I wouldn't let her do that at a Premier league ground. 

Clubs charging a lot of money because there are enough mugs to pay it is the single worst thing about British football. You're right, Ross County's prices are good for Premier league football. But let's not kid ourselves - the football is still rank. I go and watch one of the top 10-15 rugby teams in the northern hemisphere, in a cracking sold-out crowd of 7,300 every game, with some of the best players in the world on either side, for £20 and £5 for my daughter. That's how much weekly top-level sport should cost. And Scottish football is a long, long way from top level. 

£24 for an adult and child to watch Alloa v Dumbarton...  Is that really two and a half times more attractive than Sauchie V Linlithgow Rose?

[JakeSAFC]

I don't think there can be many Premier league grounds in which it's safe for a group of 8 year olds to play football within sight of people watching the game. And I've no problems letting my 12 year old go to the Rose on her own, but I wouldn't let her do that at a Premier league ground. 
Clubs charging a lot of money because there are enough mugs to pay it is the single worst thing about British football. You're right, Ross County's prices are good for Premier league football. But let's not kid ourselves - the football is still rank. I go and watch one of the top 10-15 rugby teams in the northern hemisphere, in a cracking sold-out crowd of 7,300 every game, with some of the best players in the world on either side, for £20 and £5 for my daughter. That's how much weekly top-level sport should cost. And Scottish football is a long, long way from top level. 
£24 for an adult and child to watch Alloa v Dumbarton...  Is that really two and a half times more attractive than Sauchie V Linlithgow Rose?

Apart from Parkhead and Ibrox I don't see how any ground is unsafe for 12 year olds to go themselves.

The football is not the best, granted, but it's still not the worst in the world and I personally do not think £24 is too much for a top flight game.

I agree that £24 for an adult and a child to a part time game in Scotland is a joke, but i see it being more attractive as its a better standard.

[Guest]

Gordon S illustrates clearly in his posts exactly why people want to watch Junior football. It has been mooted many times that there are problems with Junior Football, but equally so with top flight which does not recieve the same attention. If it were possible to discard the bad and keep the good from both and guaranteeing flexability then we could all move on and football in this country would benifit.  

PS, we don't have a pyramid, we pay lip service to one and the sooner this is addressed the better for all. 

[HTG]

Gordon's illustration may be why a lot of people watch junior football but fewer and fewer are actually doing it. The overheads never go down. The gate prices in the east increased by £1 after years of standing still. 

Everyone has a choice in terms of what they watch, what they'll pay, what they'll put up with. But it is an incontrovertible fact that the higher up the pyramid you go, the more people will come through your gates, the better you'll be ableto make your facilities and the better a standard of player you can bring in. 

I want to see my club progress on and off the pitch. If that means some come in and some go out along the way then so be it. I'll be there either way but if others only want to watch it so far and no further that's a choice they'll make when the time comes. We're all different. 

[JakeSAFC]

Gordon's illustration may be why a lot of people watch junior football but fewer and fewer are actually doing it. The overheads never go down. The gate prices in the east increased by £1 after years of standing still. 
Everyone has a choice in terms of what they watch, what they'll pay, what they'll put up with. But it is an incontrovertible fact that the higher up the pyramid you go, the more people will come through your gates, the better you'll be ableto make your facilities and the better a standard of player you can bring in. 
I want to see my club progress on and off the pitch. If that means some come in and some go out along the way then so be it. I'll be there either way but if others only want to watch it so far and no further that's a choice they'll make when the time comes. We're all different. 

You are spot on.

Loved our trip to Linlithgow, easily the best small club ground I have been to. Get yourselves in the league.

[ShahktarYerMaw]

Yes

[Glenconner]

When does the pyramid structure start?

[JakeSAFC]

When does the pyramid structure start?

 

Starts from the Premiership all the way down to tier 6. Juniors are welcome.

[Glenconner]

3 minutes ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

Starts from the Premiership all the way down to tier 6. Juniors are welcome.

Tier 6 being?

[JakeSAFC]

Tier 6 being?

East of Scotland and the South of Scotland.

[Glenconner]

That ain't a pyramid system that's a lottery you don't even need to buy into.

Nobody is forcing anybody to take part in the next stage.

Anybody from the EofS, SofS, Highland League or LL could say no thanks, we're staying put, moving up doesn't suit our level.

 

[Glenconner]

A true pyramid system would be say Glasgow Perthshire moving up league by league until they reached the top 4 levels.

That certainly isn't the case.

[Glenconner]

6 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

Was there any protest group formed the same way Shire supporters formed one to oppose the hostile merger? Nope. Why should they - they were getting the good end of the deal - into the big kids league & all of the Shire's assets to sell.

As recorded by Bob Crampsey and all other reputable football historians, Clydebank FC - from committee to fans - largely went along with killing another club for their league place without caring a damn. Hence why decades later some older fans held the regrettable opinion that Clydebank suffering the same fate at the hands of Airdrie was karma coming back to bite.

So accept once more your wrongness, & be wrong. 

All of the above is true.

[The Mantis]

On 07/04/2017 at 03:06, GordonS said:

I'd be interested in knowing what it is people enjoy about watching the team they support.

For me, I like walking round the corner to watch my town's team. I like paying £6 and £3 for my daughter. I like not being frisked or my bag searched to see if I'm bringing a bottle of juice in with me, and that it's ok for me to bring juice in. I like paying £1.60 for a decent steak pie and £1 for a can of coke. I like standing on the halfway line, or standing anywhere that suits me depending on the weather or what way we're shooting, or sitting on the grass on a sunny evening. I like being able to walk round and talk to people I know. I like the choice of paying another £1.50 for a seat in the stand. I like that my wee boy can kick a ball around with the other kids on the grass behind one of the goals. I like that people can bring their dog. And though I don't smoke, I like that it's one of the few places left a guy can go with a cigar or a pipe. 

My team play football that's as enjoyable to watch as any team below full-time level. I get the excitement of annual Scottish Cup runs, and regular deep runs in the Junior Cup.

I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.

I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

Good points. You don't get frisked though. The only time I've ever been frisked is at English games. I think your problem is with the ugly sisters not with seniors as a whole. I used to watch the other erse cheek from you but I wised up many, many years ago. ICT fans and County fans can drink together before a game no problem. A lot of the alcohol ban and segregation nonsense is due to the behaviour of the ugly sisters in the first place. Yes, seniors are overpriced but try paying £50+ in England where the standard is far higher but the entertainment isn't.

Since I can't get to ICT every week I pick my games. I like the juniors but I couldn't watch that level every week even for £6. People go on about £12 to watch League 2 when you can see Talbot or Pollok or Lithgae for £6. Fair enough, but for every Kilsyth v Bonnyrigg cup tie I've seen games, especially in the lower divisions, where the standard is woeful, they should have paid me £6. So let's not kid on that every Junior game is a bargain.

[WaffenThinMint]

13 hours ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Dont you have someones boss to email?

People weren't in the mindset of forming football fans groups at that particular point in time. I also have first hand experience of speaking with directors at that time who were not in favour of the merger. Don't let it get in the way of a good lie from you though.

1. "Dont you have someones boss to email?"

And from the top - Bobby Skidmarks admitted several months ago he made the whole thing up to get a laugh out of the resulting shitstorm it created as everyone claimed they "knew" who did it. No wonder he refers to "Junior thickos" when you're so slow on the uptake. You'll be taking Talbot attendances from Isobel as gospel truth next.

2. "People weren't in the mindset of forming football fans groups at that particular point in time."

LOL! Brake Clubs and other supporter led organisations had been in existence for supporters since the turn of the 20th century in Scottish football, you utter weapon.

This was the era when trade unions were king, ordinary working people were far better mentally equipped to unite & fight for what was important to them (hence the backlash over the merger from the East Stirlingshire side and the previous attempt by Rangers to have Albion Rovers, Berwick Rangers, Brechin City, Stenhousemuir and Stranraer) than their contemporaries today who think all you need to do is trend on Twitter to change the world.

3. "I also have first hand experience of speaking with directors at that time who were not in favour of the merger."

LOL! Clydebank didn't have directors - they were run by a committee. You can't even get your facts right about the club you claim you "support". The only directors not in favour were of course the minority of the Shire ones outside of the Steedman clique - which was how they overturned the attempted killing of the Shire in the courts as the shares the Steedmans sold the Clydebank committee to legitimise the deal ought to have been sold to the existing shareholders first as per the law at that time.

What a joke you are, Kilbowie2002 - keep it up.

[kefc]

By no means perfect but there's going to be some egg cracking to get the omelette made, a possible setup that could please a lot of people and clubs that gives the country a true pyramid. Mr Regan wants the Colt teams in, it's part of Project Brave so you'd imagine it will be implemented somehow if they are committing to the PB plan 100%. Iv purposely not put in promotion relegation play off numbers/places.

Lowland League West might take a bit of time to develop due to the limited number of West clubs in the present LL.

2018/2019

SPFL Premiership 12 teams / SPFL Championship 10 or 12 teams / 16 team SPFL Conference OR keep the 2 SPFL leagues of 10.

Highland League / Lowland League East / Lowland League West

16 teams in each league, all clubs must be licensed or in process of, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic Senior Colt teams added to appropriate geographical leagues.

SJFA North Super League (feeding Highland)

SJFA East Super League (feeding Lowland East)

SJFA West Super League (feeding Lowland West)

EOS League (feeding Lowland East)

SOS League (feeding Lowland West)

ALL clubs in above leagues can be licensed and if approved they gain entry into the Will Hill Scot Cup.

 

[WaffenThinMint]

1 minute ago, kefc said:

By no means perfect but there's going to be some egg cracking to get the omelette made, a possible setup that could please a lot of people and clubs that gives the country a true pyramid. Mr Regan wants the Colt teams in, it's part of Project Brave so you'd imagine it will be implemented somehow if they are committing to the PB plan 100%. Iv purposely not put in promotion relegation play off numbers/places.

Lowland League West might take a bit of time to develop due to the limited number of West clubs in the present LL.

2018/2019

SPFL Premiership 12 teams / SPFL Championship 12 teams / 16 team SPFL Conference

Highland League / Lowland League East / Lowland League West

16 teams in each league, all clubs must be licensed or in process of, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic Senior Colt teams added to appropriate geographical leagues.

SJFA North Super League (feeding Highland)

SJFA East Super League (feeding Lowland East)

SJFA West Super League (feeding Lowland West)

EOS League (feeding Lowland East)

SOS League (feeding Lowland West)

ALL clubs in above leagues can be licensed and if approved they gain entry into the Will Hill Scot Cup.

 

Not bad, although they can stick their colt teams up their arses. If the "big kids" want to have a place to blood youngsters, they can strike agreements with the non-league Seniors & Juniors instead of wanting their brand name given additional space in the league to swamp out the rest.

Also I would have the Premiership and Championship of 16 teams each - giving clubs in the two top tiers enough scope to also blood youngsters & be able to rebuild a successful past season's side taken apart by richer English predators (which has long been the bane of Scottish football) rather than having to throw away money on ageing journeymen with inflated wages because the league is so small they find themselves from the start in a relegation dogfight.

Play offs should be strictly one leg affairs - semi-final & final at a neutral - to increase the excitement for fans, prevent "dead rubber" matches if the first leg is a slaughter, and ease the problem for clubs caused by a late start to their close season if involved in the play-offs.

Finally, sack Regan and the Cockwomble - I wouldn't trust them to run the Vale of Leven pie stand, let alone anything else.

[kefc]

Colt teams will happen imo, if they are committed to their Project Brave plan which they need to 100% imo so there's no excuses then they will get in. To appease the present senior clubs it will be HL or LL.

The game here can have a bright future top and bottom if positive changes can be made coupled with the rumoured increased tv deal and possible increase in cup sponsorship.