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No Voters - what say you?


jamamafegan
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5 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I've already said it'll be front and centre of their GE campaign, if they were confident of having a referendum we'd actually see substantive arguments other than "Westminster bad". You know tackling issues like Currency, hard borders, EU membership, Nato etc... 

The record of Westminster isn't a huge argument for Indy, that's been my whole point. It's a reason why some people are unhappy but it's not providing an alternative by any means. The only people that would find this point as compelling are people that are already ideologically sold on Indy. 

Fair enough. I think you are wrong. I think the current state of Westminster will be a compelling reason for some people to switch to Indy, maybe you are right and it's not a good enough reason, but I honestly think many people looking at how thier standard of living has dropped and how people like Johnson, Rees Mogg, Patel, etc have behaved in office and think "f**k this". It's a record any "No" or "Remain" team will not want to have to defend, so they'll have to offer something to show how it's going to get better.

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The fact the UK has the second biggest unelected chamber on earth, shares an electoral system with just Belarus in Europe and it generates unassailable majorities from about 33% of only one of the 4 constituent nations is a pretty good argument. 

Also, Labour the putative alternative party of Government are clowns, equally beholden to a minority view in only one of the nations. Which isn't Scotland. 

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9 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 


Well it is actually, for several reasons.

1) the system, from a Scottish perspective, is flawed. We rarely get the Westminster Government that we voted for. In an independent Scotland we would always get the government we vote for.

2) same as point one really - clearly Scotland did not want to leave the EU but votes across the rest of the UK sealed our fate. Not only do we not get the governments we vote for, we are at the mercy of whatever the rest of the UK votes when it comes to the massive decisions that will affect all of us. In an independent Scotland, those big decisions affecting the lives of Scottish people would be made by the people who live in this country and them alone.

3) the main opposition to the current Tory government, Labour, is a complete joke and will unlikely win any general election. That means we are faced with the future of a never ending conservative rule. The conservatives influence over the media has all but ensured that Labour won’t win an election. The Tories are full of lying, evil scum who don’t care about the people of the UK. In an independent Scotland, we would likely never need to worry about the Conservative party ever again.

In summary, Westminster is very shit and it’s a big reason why people should vote yes.

 

I've highlighted the argument that you've made and then repeated. This is an advancement of Wesminster is shit, you want your individual vote to be worth more. Fair enough, that's respectable and extremely similar to why so many people voted for Brexit. 

I disagree regarding the perpetual Tory rule argument. 

You may have missed it but I said to GAD that the Westminster is shit argument is one that's unlikely to convince any floating voters, you'll get greenies for your impressive Tory bashing but other than that it's furthering none of the bigger issues.

Congrats on providing a decent point regarding individuals feeling better represented, think that's the first one posted by anyone since Nicolas speech. 

2 minutes ago, GAD said:

Fair enough. I think you are wrong. I think the current state of Westminster will be a compelling reason for some people to switch to Indy, maybe you are right and it's not a good enough reason, but I honestly think many people looking at how thier standard of living has dropped and how people like Johnson, Rees Mogg, Patel, etc have behaved in office and think "f**k this". It's a record any "No" or "Remain" team will not want to have to defend, so they'll have to offer something to show how it's going to get better.

Yeah fair enough, we can agree to disagree on the effectiveness of that attack line. 

Hopefully we'll see some substantive points put forward soonish, I'm very cynical that will happen and maintain the view we're not seeing any because they'd prefer to fight a GE on the Westminster shit line. 

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2 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

 


Well it is actually, for several reasons.

1) the system, from a Scottish perspective, is flawed. We rarely get the Westminster Government that we voted for. In an independent Scotland we would always get the government we vote for.

2) same as point one really - clearly Scotland did not want to leave the EU but votes across the rest of the UK sealed our fate. Not only do we not get the governments we vote for, we are at the mercy of whatever the rest of the UK votes when it comes to the massive decisions that will affect all of us. In an independent Scotland, those big decisions affecting the lives of Scottish people would be made by the people who live in this country and them alone.

3) the main opposition to the current Tory government, Labour, is a complete joke and will unlikely win any general election. That means we are faced with the future of a never ending conservative rule. The conservatives influence over the media has all but ensured that Labour won’t win an election. The Tories are full of lying, evil scum who don’t care about the people of the UK. In an independent Scotland, we would likely never need to worry about the Conservative party ever again.

In summary, Westminster is very shit and it’s a big reason why people should vote yes.

 

The flip side of this is also true. 

The SNP have no opposition in Scotland and also are doing a less than stellar job to put it mildly.   That may be a compelling reason for yes voters to switch to no in the same way people describe it being a possibility the other way.

I've read various posts in this forum saying the SNP are a means to an end and you can vote for whoever you like after independence.  Of course that is true but it's illogical to assume that if a GE is held after Scotland becomes an independent country that the SNP would not win that election off the back of delivering independence.  It's also illogical to assume people would en-masse switch back to Labour or wholesale to the LibDems.  We all know that he chances of the Tories winning a GE in an independent Scotland are hee-haw.

Where are these mythical parties going to come from to provide an opposition or an alternative to the SNP?  In my view it's fantasyland stuff.

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5 minutes ago, Left Back said:

The flip side of this is also true. 

The SNP have no opposition in Scotland and also are doing a less than stellar job to put it mildly.   That may be a compelling reason for yes voters to switch to no in the same way people describe it being a possibility the other way.

I've read various posts in this forum saying the SNP are a means to an end and you can vote for whoever you like after independence.  Of course that is true but it's illogical to assume that if a GE is held after Scotland becomes an independent country that the SNP would not win that election off the back of delivering independence.  It's also illogical to assume people would en-masse switch back to Labour or wholesale to the LibDems.  We all know that he chances of the Tories winning a GE in an independent Scotland are hee-haw.

Where are these mythical parties going to come from to provide an opposition or an alternative to the SNP?  In my view it's fantasyland stuff.

In fairness, and I do hate to be fair to them, the branch offices would all become new independent parties in their own right.  While there of course would be a transition period, new governance structures and some affiliation perhaps to the UK registered parties, they will eventually stop being the craven little finger puppets they are now. Capable of their own thoughts and policies and not pushed out each week to humiliate themselves defending the indefensible and pretending they get to choose their own socks and bedtime. 

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7 minutes ago, Left Back said:

The flip side of this is also true. 

The SNP have no opposition in Scotland and also are doing a less than stellar job to put it mildly.   That may be a compelling reason for yes voters to switch to no in the same way people describe it being a possibility the other way.

I've read various posts in this forum saying the SNP are a means to an end and you can vote for whoever you like after independence.  Of course that is true but it's illogical to assume that if a GE is held after Scotland becomes an independent country that the SNP would not win that election off the back of delivering independence.  It's also illogical to assume people would en-masse switch back to Labour or wholesale to the LibDems.  We all know that he chances of the Tories winning a GE in an independent Scotland are hee-haw.

Where are these mythical parties going to come from to provide an opposition or an alternative to the SNP?  In my view it's fantasyland stuff.

You have a strange perspective.  Some/much of the driving force for new parties will come from within the SNP itself, there are undoubtedly different views amongst party members as well as MPs, MSPs and Councillors as to what the priorities should be in an Independent Scotland.  Once activists in other existing parties also accept the reality of Independence they will also start looking for another home or to reorganise themselves accordingly.

One of the big benefits will be that I cannot see anyone advocating for an electoral system that’s not PR based so the elected Parliament will be more representative of the results at the ballot box.  I suspect, and hope for, a strong Green influence in a general left-of-centre government.

 

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The flip side of this is also true. 
The SNP have no opposition in Scotland and also are doing a less than stellar job to put it mildly.   That may be a compelling reason for yes voters to switch to no in the same way people describe it being a possibility the other way.


The best way to get rid of the SNP in Scotland would be to vote Yes. Their job would be done. Sure they might hold onto power for a few years after but they wouldn’t last. I believe a lot of new parties would emerge in the aftermath giving voters more appealing options.
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Greens would also benefit from independence and grow to be a larger party in the parliament, they know that environmentally-conscious energy is an industry and one that can be exported if generated on a larger scale.

I wonder if Anas' pick of purple branding for the Scotch branch, a mix of red & blue, is a conscious move towards the middle ground? A Labour Union Party.

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2 hours ago, Clown Job said:

Scottish cringe is truly alive and well with unionist

 

Useful for when UKNats claim that no one ever says we are too wee, too poor, or too stupid. But this solidifies a point I’ve long made: neither England nor the English are in any way to blame for Scotland’s minor place in the UK (or on the world stage). The fault lies squarely with self-hating Scots like the caller in that clip. 

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On 29/06/2022 at 14:29, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Why do people that want to enact a massive change on society believe that the people that are content are the ones who need to do the convincing? 

 

The main result of independence will be that right wing parties will end up in charge of policy that is devolved at the moment. 

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Aye, but fit aboot the currency. 🤷. It's going to be the same result I'm afraid. I hope there isn't a vote for another 10 years. It should be won by then. Demographics would indicate this is the case. We shouldn't blow it now for the folks that will vote for it. 

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Genuinely can't believe that people are quite content with a system allowing their country to be run into the ground by a Tory government from another country that we didn't even vote for, when was the last time the Scottish majority meant anything in the UK government? Surely to f**k the **** and shitebag pensioners can't f**k it up again.

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33 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Genuinely can't believe that people are quite content with a system allowing their country to be run into the ground by a Tory government from another country that we didn't even vote for, when was the last time the Scottish majority meant anything in the UK government? Surely to f**k the **** and shitebag pensioners can't f**k it up again.

Many people don 't primarily see Scotland as 'their country'. It's quite difficult for some Scottish independence supporters to get their head round. They might not even think of themselves primarily as 'British'. Nationalism, British, Scottish whatever is a bit of a scam which has its roots in getting people who don't give a shit about you to fight for you in wars. See also: religion.

I see a vote for independence as precipitating the elections of right wing governments in Scotland that have jurisdiction over health and education policy. Without having to worry about cutting or raising taxes (to any great extent), pensions and benefits the Scottish Government can concentrate on spending our money in a left of centre manner which I prefer.

Independence supporters get quite sheepish when you suggest that Scotland won't always vote for left wing parties.

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59 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Genuinely can't believe that people are quite content with a system allowing their country to be run into the ground by a Tory government from another country that we didn't even vote for, when was the last time the Scottish majority meant anything in the UK government? Surely to f**k the **** and shitebag pensioners can't f**k it up again.

1955 was the last time the Tories got more votes in Scotland than any other party.  Every Tory government since that one has had no mandate from the Scottish electorate yet they have been in power for over two thirds of that time.

BTW 1955 is a very long time ago, it’s the year I was born!

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36 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

I see a vote for independence as precipitating the elections of right wing governments in Scotland that have jurisdiction over health and education policy. Without having to worry about cutting or raising taxes (to any great extent), pensions and benefits the Scottish Government can concentrate on spending our money in a left of centre manner which I prefer.

Independence supporters get quite sheepish when you suggest that Scotland won't always vote for left wing parties.

This is a very, very unlikely scenario. The Tory vote in Scotland has hung 22-26% ish for decades. They hit 28% or so at the 2017 GE, which was a bit of an outlier. They haven't been near 40% since about the 60s. I don't even see how they'd be able to form a coalition. There aren't any other non-moonhowling parties which are right wing. 

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9 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

This is a very, very unlikely scenario. The Tory vote in Scotland has hung 22-26% ish for decades. They hit 28% or so at the 2017 GE, which was a bit of an outlier. They haven't been near 40% since about the 60s. I don't even see how they'd be able to form a coalition. There aren't any other non-moonhowling parties which are right wing. 


How much of that is because Scotland genuinely dislikes centre-right policies and how much of it is because the Tory brand was toxic for thirty years and still is in certain parts?

 

Remember that Scotland had absolutely no problem voting for new Labour which was implementing a lot of centrist policies, if not slightly right of centre.

 

I think that a new right of centre party could have success after independence, completely detached from the Tory brand. 
 

On the other hand though, you could definitely argue that a lot of the mini-revival the Tories have enjoyed in Scotland since the 2016 Holyrood election is driven by the fact that they’re the strongest voice in favour of unionism and many of those who vote for them are doing so because they think it’s the best way to protect the union rather than because of the centre-right policies. 

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55 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

1955 was the last time the Tories got more votes in Scotland than any other party.  Every Tory government since that one has had no mandate from the Scottish electorate yet they have been in power for over two thirds of that time.

BTW 1955 is a very long time ago, it’s the year I was born!

I trust you are enjoying retirement! 

Think about that folks. Someone born in the year the tories last won a majority of Scottish seats has now reached state retirement age.  

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