No Voters - what say you?

[Zern]

Greens would also benefit from independence and grow to be a larger party in the parliament, they know that environmentally-conscious energy is an industry and one that can be exported if generated on a larger scale.

I wonder if Anas' pick of purple branding for the Scotch branch, a mix of red & blue, is a conscious move towards the middle ground? A Labour Union Party.

[Clown Job]

Scottish cringe is truly alive and well with unionist

 

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, Clown Job said:

Scottish cringe is truly alive and well with unionist

 

Useful for when UKNats claim that no one ever says we are too wee, too poor, or too stupid. But this solidifies a point I’ve long made: neither England nor the English are in any way to blame for Scotland’s minor place in the UK (or on the world stage). The fault lies squarely with self-hating Scots like the caller in that clip. 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Irish reunification needs to come first because a huge number of Scots are religious dafties and won’t vote for Scottish independence because of ‘the Ranjurs’.

[sparky88]

On 29/06/2022 at 14:29, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Why do people that want to enact a massive change on society believe that the people that are content are the ones who need to do the convincing? 

 

The main result of independence will be that right wing parties will end up in charge of policy that is devolved at the moment. 

[GTee]

Aye, but fit aboot the currency. . It's going to be the same result I'm afraid. I hope there isn't a vote for another 10 years. It should be won by then. Demographics would indicate this is the case. We shouldn't blow it now for the folks that will vote for it. 

[Empty It]

Genuinely can't believe that people are quite content with a system allowing their country to be run into the ground by a Tory government from another country that we didn't even vote for, when was the last time the Scottish majority meant anything in the UK government? Surely to f**k the **** and shitebag pensioners can't f**k it up again.

[sparky88]

33 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Genuinely can't believe that people are quite content with a system allowing their country to be run into the ground by a Tory government from another country that we didn't even vote for, when was the last time the Scottish majority meant anything in the UK government? Surely to f**k the **** and shitebag pensioners can't f**k it up again.

Many people don 't primarily see Scotland as 'their country'. It's quite difficult for some Scottish independence supporters to get their head round. They might not even think of themselves primarily as 'British'. Nationalism, British, Scottish whatever is a bit of a scam which has its roots in getting people who don't give a shit about you to fight for you in wars. See also: religion.

I see a vote for independence as precipitating the elections of right wing governments in Scotland that have jurisdiction over health and education policy. Without having to worry about cutting or raising taxes (to any great extent), pensions and benefits the Scottish Government can concentrate on spending our money in a left of centre manner which I prefer.

Independence supporters get quite sheepish when you suggest that Scotland won't always vote for left wing parties.

[Granny Danger]

59 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Genuinely can't believe that people are quite content with a system allowing their country to be run into the ground by a Tory government from another country that we didn't even vote for, when was the last time the Scottish majority meant anything in the UK government? Surely to f**k the **** and shitebag pensioners can't f**k it up again.

1955 was the last time the Tories got more votes in Scotland than any other party.  Every Tory government since that one has had no mandate from the Scottish electorate yet they have been in power for over two thirds of that time.

BTW 1955 is a very long time ago, it’s the year I was born!

[Benjamin_Nevis]

36 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

I see a vote for independence as precipitating the elections of right wing governments in Scotland that have jurisdiction over health and education policy. Without having to worry about cutting or raising taxes (to any great extent), pensions and benefits the Scottish Government can concentrate on spending our money in a left of centre manner which I prefer.

Independence supporters get quite sheepish when you suggest that Scotland won't always vote for left wing parties.

This is a very, very unlikely scenario. The Tory vote in Scotland has hung 22-26% ish for decades. They hit 28% or so at the 2017 GE, which was a bit of an outlier. They haven't been near 40% since about the 60s. I don't even see how they'd be able to form a coalition. There aren't any other non-moonhowling parties which are right wing. 

[Donathan]

9 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

This is a very, very unlikely scenario. The Tory vote in Scotland has hung 22-26% ish for decades. They hit 28% or so at the 2017 GE, which was a bit of an outlier. They haven't been near 40% since about the 60s. I don't even see how they'd be able to form a coalition. There aren't any other non-moonhowling parties which are right wing. 

How much of that is because Scotland genuinely dislikes centre-right policies and how much of it is because the Tory brand was toxic for thirty years and still is in certain parts?

 

Remember that Scotland had absolutely no problem voting for new Labour which was implementing a lot of centrist policies, if not slightly right of centre.

 

I think that a new right of centre party could have success after independence, completely detached from the Tory brand. 
 

On the other hand though, you could definitely argue that a lot of the mini-revival the Tories have enjoyed in Scotland since the 2016 Holyrood election is driven by the fact that they’re the strongest voice in favour of unionism and many of those who vote for them are doing so because they think it’s the best way to protect the union rather than because of the centre-right policies. 

[Salt n Vinegar]

55 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

1955 was the last time the Tories got more votes in Scotland than any other party.  Every Tory government since that one has had no mandate from the Scottish electorate yet they have been in power for over two thirds of that time.

BTW 1955 is a very long time ago, it’s the year I was born!

I trust you are enjoying retirement! 

Think about that folks. Someone born in the year the tories last won a majority of Scottish seats has now reached state retirement age.  

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 hour ago, Donathan said:

How much of that is because Scotland genuinely dislikes centre-right policies and how much of it is because the Tory brand was toxic for thirty years and still is in certain parts?

Remember that Scotland had absolutely no problem voting for new Labour which was implementing a lot of centrist policies, if not slightly right of centre.

I think that a new right of centre party could have success after independence, completely detached from the Tory brand. 
On the other hand though, you could definitely argue that a lot of the mini-revival the Tories have enjoyed in Scotland since the 2016 Holyrood election is driven by the fact that they’re the strongest voice in favour of unionism and many of those who vote for them are doing so because they think it’s the best way to protect the union rather than because of the centre-right policies. 

I'd argue that the behaviour of the current Tory lot ensure their brand will remain toxic for decades to come. I just don't see where the numbers for a new right of centre party would come from. Right-leaning labour voters have probably already switched to the Tories, the Lib Dems are an irrelevance. 

New Labour swept to power partly due to a successful rebrand, mostly down to endemic Tory sleaze and already had a health base number of safe Labour seats to build on. Labour either already have, or are close to completely fucking themselves beyond repair in Scotland. 

[GTG_03]

1 hour ago, Donathan said:

How much of that is because Scotland genuinely dislikes centre-right policies and how much of it is because the Tory brand was toxic for thirty years and still is in certain parts?

 

Remember that Scotland had absolutely no problem voting for new Labour which was implementing a lot of centrist policies, if not slightly right of centre.

 

I think that a new right of centre party could have success after independence, completely detached from the Tory brand. 
 

On the other hand though, you could definitely argue that a lot of the mini-revival the Tories have enjoyed in Scotland since the 2016 Holyrood election is driven by the fact that they’re the strongest voice in favour of unionism and many of those who vote for them are doing so because they think it’s the best way to protect the union rather than because of the centre-right policies. 

I actually agree with this, Scotland votes generally left of centre but this may change in an independent Scotland depending on the circumstances. 

I don't think they'd win an election up here(at least for a few years) but they might creep up from the 20s to the 30s.

I'm hoping to be able to finally vote for the real Labour party, I can't or won't bite for them with their current stance on indy.

[sparky88]

2 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

This is a very, very unlikely scenario. The Tory vote in Scotland has hung 22-26% ish for decades. They hit 28% or so at the 2017 GE, which was a bit of an outlier. They haven't been near 40% since about the 60s. I don't even see how they'd be able to form a coalition. There aren't any other non-moonhowling parties which are right wing. 

Wait til you find out that people with centre-right views vote for the SNP to achieve independence. To put it another way, John Mason and Mhairi Black are not going to find themselves in the same party after Scotland votes Yes.

As many as a third of SNP supporters  voted Leave.

Edited July 2, 2022 by sparky88

[Salt n Vinegar]

My younger lad asked me a question yesterday which I confess that my answer was "dunno". 

To me, the "powers" to hold a referendum without a S30 are legally dodgy but well worth testing for a variety of reasons. I explained to him that the Act was carefully worded to claim that in reality Scotland needs England's permission to have a vote on its constitutional future. To me, that's mental, but it appears to be the case. 

My lad asked me if the Supreme Court has the ability to take into account the fundamental fairness and reasonableness of the law itself, or if they have to set aside any of these considerations and look only at the strict wording.  I don't know that answer. 

Anyone else? Would a challenge to the legitimacy of the restrictive section of the Act itself be competent in the submissions to the Supreme Court? 

While of course comments are open to all, even if, no doubt, I wont see some of them, I'd prefer ones from any folk well acquainted with constitutional law. 

[Brother Blades]

1 hour ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

My younger lad asked me a question yesterday which I confess that my answer was "dunno". 

To me, the "powers" to hold a referendum without a S30 are legally dodgy but well worth testing for a variety of reasons. I explained to him that the Act was carefully worded to claim that in reality Scotland needs England's permission to have a vote on its constitutional future. To me, that's mental, but it appears to be the case. 

My lad asked me if the Supreme Court has the ability to take into account the fundamental fairness and reasonableness of the law itself, or if they have to set aside any of these considerations and look only at the strict wording.  I don't know that answer. 

Anyone else? Would a challenge to the legitimacy of the restrictive section of the Act itself be competent in the submissions to the Supreme Court? 

While of course comments are open to all, even if, no doubt, I wont see some of them, I'd prefer ones from any folk well acquainted with constitutional law. 

I’m no expert on constitutional law (or indeed any other type of law), but I’m certain that this very question was answered by (I think), @AdLib & the answer was that the court can only look at the actual legal situation & cannot take into account any extenuating circumstances. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Brother Blades

[gmca]

46 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

I’m no expert on constitutional law (or indeed any other type of law), but I’m certain that this very question was answered by (I think), @AdLib & the answer was that the court can only look at the actual legal situation & cannot take into account any extenuating circumstances. 

Likewise I'm no expert, but did a course several years ago, part of which dealt with UK and EU law. My memory is that UK law needed to be interpreted based on a strict view of the wording, whereas EU law was to be looked at using the intention behind the reason for the law.

[carpetmonster]

46 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

I’m no expert on constitutional law (or indeed any other type of law), but I’m certain that this very question was answered by (I think), @AdLib & the answer was that the court can only look at the actual legal situation & cannot take into account any extenuating circumstances. 

I could be talking utter pish here - so if anyone is an expert, please set me right - but I read a bit a while ago about the Scottish Court of Session being the equal of the UK Supreme Court and the UKSC would not generally overrule, given differing legal systems - certainly Jolyon Maugham took the Scottish Court's decision that Johnson proroguing Parliament being illegal meant that it was, prior to the UKSC ruling - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/11/scottish-judges-rule-boris-johnsons-prorogation-unlawful

The ethos was that if Holyrood were to take the referendum question to the Court of Session, then it may stand a better chance than at the UKSC and the UKSC would be very loth to intervene. Does Sturgeon have that as an ace up her sleeve? I'm presuming it's been shot down, given nobody's talking about it, and I thought perhaps because the question is if the referendum is within Holyrood or Westminster's power then it might have to go to the (whole of the UK) Supreme Court, but if the Good Law Project will accept a Scottish ruling on Westminster prorogation then now I'm not sure. 

[Zern]

I'm not sure how broad the remit is, although the initial groundwork being done by the Lord Advocate may allow for more considerations. Cherry appears to think so.

I was thinking that perhaps they could take a middle ground and judge that some sort of constitutional settlement be worked out between the governments, but that seems to be covered by the s30 request that remains open.

This judgement will have wider ramifications. Especially on the GFA and the settlement regarding Northern Ireland as this request by Scotland follows the same process there. Elections to legislative power and the ability to pass mandated policies. Sinn Fein would be running on a mandate like this and were they in the position to do what the First Minister of Scotland could do, they would.