No Voters - what say you?

[Glen Sannox]

Well said old bean!
I'm as big a unionist as you'll ever get bit even I have moments when I think "what if I am wrong?" But then I think of utter rockets like Fide etc and think to myself "there is no way I am letting them win".... I am drunk on holiday so wil probably delete this in the morning.

To be fair, you are always going to get utter loonballs like Fide, but at least you're prepared to be pragmatic enough to look beyond that.
Well done you.

[WaffenThinMint]

10 minutes ago, Glen Sannox said:

To be fair, you are always going to get utter loonballs like Fide, but at least you're prepared to be pragmatic enough to look beyond that.
Well done you.

 

 

[Cerberus]

As soon as the reality of Brexit hits, people will be wanting independence.

When it comes down to it, people won't give a single f**k about the UK if the economy is in the gutter and they can't afford their "lower middle class" lifestyle.

[Fide]

8 hours ago, McSpreader said:

politiking ......politicking.....a typo doesn't defeat the point made.

The typo highlight was a clear aside to the point being made.  Genuine question.  Do you truly feel that you and your family are better served by a Westminster Tory Government in perpetuity than an independent Holyrood Government?

[harry94]

On 4/10/2017 at 05:16, Fide said:

I saw my 21 year old nephew and his girlfriend at the weekend.  One of the few raving Yoons I know and I wondered, because I hadn't seen him for a while, whether Brexit had softened his opinion.  Nope.

I knew i was onto plums when he started talking about swapping Westminster for Brussels, followed by some violent headshakes when I tried to explain the difference between an iScotland in Europe and Scotland as part of the UK.  Then his girlfriend mentioned Nicola Sturgeon and wondered "when she would put her dummy back in".

We're 32 pages into this topic now and I haven't seen one cohesive, sound argument for remaining part of the UK.

I was just disappointed to have had first hand experience of young people fervently opposing independence because reasons and SNPbad.

I'm not a remain but I think it's maybe getting a bit echo chambery with the talk of the no argument. I think it's in a worse position than a few years ago but it's still not going to be something that will be easy to overcome.

The only figures we have on a Scottish economy is GERS and they show a deficit pretty much worse than anywhere else in Europe. Those headline figures combined with the currency issue (even if a cohesive issue was set out well, it's going to have weaknesses) is uncertainty that goes even far beyond anything we've seen (even leaving the EU); people will be nervous about that sort of change. I think we should be careful about beating them for that sort of worry and maybe implore the SNP to set out things a bit differently this time and make a cohesive expert plan for the economy their number one aim, even if that's maybe not achievable.

I do think it's kind of bullshit and tend to believe that the economy is atrociously stacked against Scottish interests and Holyrood would be able to do substantially more to re-balance the economy which would see us much healthier 10-15 years down the line than we'd be under London control but we've got to be able to pick up on specifics to use.

[renton]

12 hours ago, McSpreader said:

But other nations haven't had to give up membership of this union or any comparable union. Scotland is in a uniquely blessed  situation that makes the natural urge for independence less important to pursue.

I don't think this answers any of his arguments. 'Uniquely blessed' is also fairly hyperbolic. Scotland does not control the majority of fiscal and financial levers required to improve it's own situation. Scotland does not have the necessary level of representation in the legislature that does control these levers to make a positive difference to it's own situation. How is that 'blessed'?

[Fide]

3 hours ago, harry94 said:

 

The only figures we have on a Scottish economy is GERS and they show a deficit pretty much worse than anywhere else in Europe.

The ONLY thing that GERS shows is how Scotland's finances fare under Westminster control.  They do not model for an independent Scotland.

If anything, poor GERS figures are an advert for going independent.

[harry94]

7 minutes ago, Fide said:

The ONLY thing that GERS shows is how Scotland's finances fare under Westminster control.  They do not model for an independent Scotland.

If anything, poor GERS figures are an advert for going independent.

You are correct and I agree with the general sentiment but most people won't see it that way. If they are bad, it suggests that an independent Scotland would start life off in a poor fiscal position whilst having to navigate through some pretty big challenges (like setting monetary ratings and handling the negotiations of debt with an initial low credit rating).

This will mean that we could be waking up a poorer nation one day and it is something which will potentially bring a lot of worry for a further reduction in public services and more tax burdens for lower income people (the top rate tax will realistically be kept low to protect capital flight in the aftermath). Voting for upheaval in the knowledge of short term loss but the possible gain of a better economy much further down the line with no guarantees about how this will pan out is not something which a lot of the electorate will go for.

I think there is a good chance that the figures are manipulated in some way and they don't give a full picture but they are all we have available right now and we need to be able to use something.

[ayrmad]

1 minute ago, harry94 said:

You are correct and I agree with the general sentiment but most people won't see it that way. If they are bad, it suggests that an independent Scotland would start life off in a poor fiscal position whilst having to navigate through some pretty big challenges (like setting monetary ratings and handling the negotiations of debt with an initial low credit rating).

This will mean that we could be waking up a poorer nation one day and it is something which will potentially bring a lot of worry for a further reduction in public services and more tax burdens for lower income people (the top rate tax will realistically be kept low to protect capital flight in the aftermath). Voting for upheaval in the knowledge of short term loss but the possible gain of a better economy much further down the line with no guarantees about how this will pan out is not something which a lot of the electorate will go for.

I think there is a good chance that the figures are manipulated in some way and they don't give a full picture but they are all we have available right now and we need to be able to use something.

We voted for Brexit despite all the doom mongering about the economy post brexit, it's not the figures that are the problem so much as the MSM's failure to show that what the UK are doing/has done might not be the best way for Scotland, why would they, they're in the trough.

[Fide]

10 minutes ago, harry94 said:

You are correct and I agree with the general sentiment but most people won't see it that way.

Then it's very important that, this time out, the Yes campaign takes every opportunity to highlight how ineffectual it is to use GERS to model for an iScotland.

We're not short of resources to do so:

Economists Jim and Margaret Cuthbert:

Deloitte:

Economist Professor Richard J Murphy:

And many more.

[harry94]

We voted for Brexit despite all the doom mongering about the economy post brexit, it's not the figures that are the problem so much as the MSM's failure to show that what the UK are doing/has done might not be the best way for Scotland, why would they, they're in the trough.

Media is an issue and an exceptional self reliant super power Britain is always etched into the national consensus but I'd say it's still a lot different on the economy aspect and a huge issue.

The UK has a treasury and is already a sovereign state with all the levers of government. The economic repercussions are mostly surrounding the quality of trade deals and the argument for how much we benefit from the EU was quite a small amount of money in the grand scheme of things.

Scotland would be taking operation of our whole tax system at once and establishing monetary policy. The arguments about the impact the UK has on our funding suggests a deficit which would surely see the need for a sudden change in spending and at the very worst interpenetration, could even need a bailout package which would put conditions on how our public services are handled. It's got much bigger implications for day to day life than the EU.

If the potential of short term disaster can't be factually refuted, winning will be substantially more difficult.

[Fide]

3 minutes ago, harry94 said:

 

 

Media is an issue and an exceptional self reliant super power Britain is always etched into the national consensus but I'd say it's still a lot different on the economy aspect and a huge issue.

The UK has a treasury and is already a sovereign state with all the levers of government. The economic repercussions are mostly surrounding the quality of trade deals and the argument for how much we benefit from the EU was quite a small amount of money in the grand scheme of things.

Scotland would be taking operation of our whole tax system at once and establishing monetary policy. The arguments about the impact the UK has on our funding suggests a deficit which would surely see the need for a sudden change in spending and at the very worst interpenetration, could even need a bailout package which would put conditions on how our public services are handled. It's got much bigger implications for day to day life than the EU.

If the potential of short term disaster can't be factually refuted, winning will be substantially more difficult.

 

Nobody is saying everything will be rosy from day 1.  There isn't a Yes supporter out there promising instant "milk and honey".

An analogy I would use is ripping a plaster off a wound to let it heal.  Sometimes you have to experience some very short term pain for the greater and long term good.

There are 193 independent countries in the world, depending on what parameters you're using.  If they can do it, so can we.

[McSpreader]

13 hours ago, Fide said:

The typo highlight was a clear aside to the point being made.  Genuine question.  Do you truly feel that you and your family are better served by a Westminster Tory Government in perpetuity than an independent Holyrood Government?

Ok......genuine answer. Yes.

And the reason why is because I don't trust the SNP in perpetuity to run a fair, inclusive prosperous administration that accepts the needs, hopes and diversity of all Scotland. Rich, poor, old, young , Indigenous, foreign , working , non-working......All people.

I'm feared they will destroy the entreprenurial, aspirational wealth creating independent small business  base and put off meaningful investment from international companies due to their envy based, centralising, left leaning populist anti Uk,  embittered attitude to politics. 

They should be using their time in Holyrood to prove they are capable of running  a Sovereign nation  and engaging meaningfully with the world instead of constantly railing against Westminster, The Tories, Brexit and acting like insurgents trying to undermine the British state.

Do they not realise that if thet ever do run an iScotland that the World will never fit their rose tinted expectations and real life can be  shit........Trump , Brexit, Syria, International Jihad, Globalisation........And that's without the demands of a whingeing unproductive demanding citizenry ?

They will have to deal with all of that and the wailing and gnashing of teeth approach they adopt now just won't cut it.

I don't trust the SNP one iota to deliver for all  Scotland.

[Antlion]

18 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

Ok......genuine answer. Yes.

And the reason why is because I don't trust the SNP in perpetuity to run a fair, inclusive prosperous administration that accepts the needs, hopes and diversity of all Scotland. Rich, poor, old, young , Indigenous, foreign , working , non-working......All people.

I'm feared they will destroy the entreprenurial, aspirational wealth creating independent small business  base and put off meaningful investment from international companies due to their envy based, centralising, left leaning populist anti Uk,  embittered attitude to politics. 

They should be using their time in Holyrood to prove they are capable of running  a Sovereign nation  and engaging meaningfully with the world instead of constantly railing against Westminster, The Tories, Brexit and acting like insurgents trying to undermine the British state.

Do they not realise that if thet ever do run an iScotland that the World will never fit their rose tinted expectations and real life can be  shit........Trump , Brexit, Syria, International Jihad, Globalisation........And that's without the demands of a whingeing unproductive demanding citizenry ?

They will have to deal with all of that and the wailing and gnashing of teeth approach they adopt now just won't cut it.

I don't trust the SNP one iota to deliver for all  Scotland.

In other words you don't believe Scotland is capable of electing governments to govern Scotland, and thus England should choose them for us.

Your hatred of the SNP is a smokescreen. You would oppose Scotland's sovereignty and statehood (which you believe are necessary things; it's just Scotland that should be denied them) if an independent Tory party were to gain power in iScotland.

You hate the SNP because they are a potential threat to your ideological belief in Scotland being forever a wee region of your desired state: an independent UK. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[NotThePars]

Because the British state is working for all the LGBT people it's deporting to countries where they're facing the death penalty. And the ever increasing homeless population. And the asylum seekers detained and abused in Yarls Wood. Or the increasing ranks of the unemployed who are frequently sanctioned against the stated rules of the DWP. And the people dying in hospital waiting rooms because of the NHS funding and staffing crises. And the poor who have had the worst stagnation of their wages in 210 years. Aye the British state is working for these people.

[pandarilla]

Why the f**k would Scotland have to deal with trump, Syria, and international jihad?

This is the problem with the little Englander mentality. They still think they're a player.

f**k all that, and sort out our own affairs. Scotland is more than capable. Stick your global standing up your arse I'd say.

[Fide]

2 hours ago, McSpreader said:

Ok......genuine answer. Yes.

And the reason why is because I don't trust the SNP in perpetuity to run a fair, inclusive prosperous administration that accepts the needs, hopes and diversity of all Scotland. Rich, poor, old, young , Indigenous, foreign , working , non-working......All people.

I'm feared they will destroy the entreprenurial, aspirational wealth creating independent small business  base and put off meaningful investment from international companies due to their envy based, centralising, left leaning populist anti Uk,  embittered attitude to politics. 

They should be using their time in Holyrood to prove they are capable of running  a Sovereign nation  and engaging meaningfully with the world instead of constantly railing against Westminster, The Tories, Brexit and acting like insurgents trying to undermine the British state.

Do they not realise that if thet ever do run an iScotland that the World will never fit their rose tinted expectations and real life can be  shit........Trump , Brexit, Syria, International Jihad, Globalisation........And that's without the demands of a whingeing unproductive demanding citizenry ?

They will have to deal with all of that and the wailing and gnashing of teeth approach they adopt now just won't cut it.

I don't trust the SNP one iota to deliver for all  Scotland.

Independence is about much more than the SNP.

[The_Kincardine]

2 hours ago, McSpreader said:

I don't trust the SNP one iota to deliver for all  Scotland.

 

15 minutes ago, Fide said:

Independence is about much more than the SNP.

I'm right behind Muckspreader on here.  I'm relaxed about indi-Scotland but detest the SNP. The Tories/Unionists should provide the sensible independent outlet but Scottish voters are generally too thick to appreciate the benefits of an inclusive fiscal-light form of government.

[John Lambies Doos]

Why the f**k would Scotland have to deal with trump, Syria, and international jihad?

This is the problem with the little Englander mentality. They still think they're a player.

This... reminds me of Diamonds are Forever 1971... when Blofeld tells James Bond, that his pitiful small island wasn't even considered as part of his world domination plot.

People like Mcspreader are typical of the ridiculous little englander attitude which is engrained in colonial Britain.

[Blootoon87]

I'm right behind Muckspreader on here.  I'm relaxed about indi-Scotland but detest the SNP. The Tories/Unionists should provide the sensible independent outlet but Scottish voters are generally too thick to appreciate the benefits of an inclusive fiscal-light form of government.

How would the Tories/Unionists provide the sensible independent outlet exactly?