No Voters - what say you?

[dogmc]

The huge difficulty (despite few folk on here wanting to admit to it) is that democracy seems like it's being ignored by those pushing for a second referendum.

I'm a committed yes man but there is more of a mandate in a recent 55% victory in a referendum with a huge turnout than there is in an election promise and subsequent victory (with what, 47% of the vote on a lower turnout).

I know it's not a popular point but it seems to me that a majority of Scots still do not want a second referendum so soon (despite a massive brexit change in circumstances).

Sturgeon is playing a difficult hand here.

250000 increase in snp first choice votes and the electorate returning a majority of pro indy msps is as clear a mandate as possible for a 2nd referendum given that Scotland voted almost two to one to remain. If the arguments for BT are really strong enough why fear a referendum?

[pandarilla]

250000 increase in snp first choice votes and the electorate returning a majority of pro indy msps is as clear a mandate as possible for a 2nd referendum given that Scotland voted almost two to one to remain. If the arguments for BT are really strong enough why fear a referendum?

Yeah there's some fear because politics can change very quickly - but you have to understand the frustration. 2014 was historic. It was a huge decision after a very long campaign. They won (and as much as I hate to admit it, it was a clear victory) and now it looks like we're playing the old 'best of three' trick.

That's why there's so much vitriol against the snp.

[Granny Danger]

31 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

The huge difficulty (despite few folk on here wanting to admit to it) is that democracy seems like it's being ignored by those pushing for a second referendum.

I'm a committed yes man but there is more of a mandate in a recent 55% victory in a referendum with a huge turnout than there is in an election promise and subsequent victory (with what, 47% of the vote on a lower turnout).

I know it's not a popular point but it seems to me that a majority of Scots still do not want a second referendum so soon (despite a massive brexit change in circumstances).

Sturgeon is playing a difficult hand here.

 

It depends if you define democracy as a decisions based on manifesto commitments made by political parties who have a majority in the Scottish Parliament elected by proportional representation or opinion polls.

Personally I go for the former.

 

[pandarilla]

It depends if you define democracy as a decisions based on manifesto commitments made by political parties who have a majority in the Scottish Parliament elected by proportional representation or opinion polls.
Personally I go for the former.
 

Or a referendum result?

[dogmc]

Yeah there's some fear because politics can change very quickly - but you have to understand the frustration. 2014 was historic. It was a huge decision after a very long campaign. They won (and as much as I hate to admit it, it was a clear victory) and now it looks like we're playing the old 'best of three' trick.

That's why there's so much vitriol against the snp.

The vitriol against the snp is far more about British nationalism than a rational coherent analysis of what represents the best way forward for a fair just society. It's very much about not feeling uppity jocks are allowed the have the same voice as the imperial overlords. The Scottish public in the last 3 major votes have been entirely clear about voting against the wishes of the unionist parties....there's best of 3 right off the bat.

[pandarilla]

The vitriol against the snp is far more about British nationalism than a rational coherent analysis of what represents the best way forward for a fair just society. It's very much about not feeling uppity jocks are allowed the have the same voice as the imperial overlords. The Scottish public in the last 3 major votes have been entirely clear about voting against the wishes of the unionist parties....there's best of 3 right off the bat.

The last three major votes? Are you ignoring the one that was actually about staying in the union?

It's incredibly obvious that Scottish labour are a joke and although the Tories have garnered a lot of support there's thousands of Scots who could never vote for them (and rightly so). Consequently the snp are seen as the best choice to speak up for Scotland and to run the Scottish government.

But the referendum happened. It was a thing. It's not binding for eternity but it's been less than three years.

[Granny Danger]

7 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

Or a referendum result?

 

I'm not sure if I understand.  If you're talking about the Independence a Referendum there has been a subsequent election since then when political parties presented their manifestos and were mandidated by the vote.

[dogmc]

The last three major votes? Are you ignoring the one that was actually about staying in the union?

It's incredibly obvious that Scottish labour are a joke and although the Tories have garnered a lot of support there's thousands of Scots who could never vote for them (and rightly so). Consequently the snp are seen as the best choice to speak up for Scotland and to run the Scottish government.

But the referendum happened. It was a thing. It's not binding for eternity but it's been less than three years.

And the landscape had changed hugely since then....timescale isn't the yardstick constitutional change is. Thatcher said an snp majority of scottish constituencies at a ge should trigger indy.....times change. There's a clear mandate for another referendum. Whether it results in yes or no is another issue but the electorate mandated holyrood to debate the issue and a majority has clearly landed for indyref2. Denying that would be fundamentally undemocratic....rather like telling 68% people that they have to leave eu against their will.

[pandarilla]

And the landscape had changed hugely since then....timescale isn't the yardstick constitutional change is. Thatcher said an snp majority of scottish constituencies at a ge should trigger indy.....times change. There's a clear mandate for another referendum. Whether it results in yes or no is another issue but the electorate mandated holyrood to debate the issue and a majority has clearly landed for indyref2. Denying that would be fundamentally undemocratic....rather like telling 68% people that they have to leave eu against their will.

You can't just dismiss it as easily as that - timescale does matter. You're right in everything else but timing does matter. We can't escape that.

[invergowrie arab]

The last vote was to stay in the union at the time not in perpetuity and not no matter what.

The Edinburgh Agreement was silent on timescales.

That decision was respected by all parties. Since then the world has changed.

The electoral mandate is yesterday's news. Scotlands democratically elected parliament has now given the FM an explicit unequivocal mandate to seek a s30 order.

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, pandarilla said:

 

You can't just dismiss it as easily as that - timescale does matter. You're right in everything else but timing does matter. We can't escape that.

 

One think that annoyed me about Salmond the last time around was the 'once in a generation' comment.  No elected politician has the right to make such a comment; a politician's mandate lasts the length of time they are voted into office and they have no right to make commitments, positive or negative, about the period beyond that mandate.  If politicians are then voted in for a further term their mandate starts again and should be based on the manifesto commitments given.

That is the nub of representative democracy.  It may not always happen like that but it is totally legitimate 

[dogmc]

You can't just dismiss it as easily as that - timescale does matter. You're right in everything else but timing does matter. We can't escape that.

I can....i just did. The same way that tories lib dems n lab have ignored 56 out of 59 constuencies voting snp, 68% of scots voting remain and the holyrood voting as i mentioned above. Brexit changes everything as the entire UK electorate was aware of prior to voting. Since 2014 the landscape has totally changed. It doesn't matter if that change took 3 years or 30....that change requires an acceptance that the Scottish electorate be allowed to express it's opinion one way or the other. The amount of change is the issue not how quickly it happened after one vote....especially when that vote was predicated on so many promises which the BT side made that fell through. Had they delivered on the vow and remaining in eu there would be no clear mandate.

[Alert Mongoose]

A point being missed is that some who could well imagine an independent Scotland hold the SNP in contempt and it's to Scotland's demerit that it's either Wee Nicola or nothing.
There's a massive democratic deficit in Scotland as there seems to be no credible alternative to the shortbread-munchers.

You are a total and utter arsehole. You are not part of Scotland so accept that and keep your gin soaked nose out of politics in a different country.

[The_Kincardine]

15 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

One think that annoyed me about Salmond the last time around was the 'once in a generation' comment.  

With the 'only if we win' rider. 

Today's vote can only be seen as small-minded tub-thumping on the part of the dreadful SNP.

[Gordon EF]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Today's vote can only be seen as small-minded tub-thumping on the part of the dreadful SNP.

Alright m8, this isn't the Daily Record letters page you know?

[The_Kincardine]

6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Alright m8, this isn't the Daily Record letters page you know?

Oh I know...so I expect a less balanced view on here.

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, Alert Mongoose said:

 

You are a total and utter arsehole. You are not part of Scotland so accept that and keep your gin soaked nose out of politics in a different country.

 

^^^ The apotheosis of the shortbread munchers.

[Gordon EF]

There's a couple of empty gin bottles down south with a lot to answer for.

[DrewDon]

I'm quite happy for unionists to keep soiling themselves and obsessing over the "once in a generation" thing for the next few years whilst the other side gets on with, you know, making the progressive arguments for an independent Scotland, tbh.

[The_Kincardine]

11 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

I'm quite happy for unionists to keep soiling themselves and obsessing over the "once in a generation" thing for the next few years whilst the other side gets on with, you know, making the progressive arguments for an independent Scotland, tbh.

I'd love to hear 'the progressive argument' and would happily buy in to it.  All I've heard from Wee Burnie has been negative 'we're not England' arguments.  Now I know her electorate are people of small brain and short attention-span but maybe someone could enlighten me?  I suspect not.