No Voters - what say you?

[JMDP]

He's lucky to have a skill set which means he is immune to the threat of his wages being driven down by an over supply of labour or his employment sector being uprooted to another country.
He'll mend those left behind by such global forces though eh?
The deliberate simplification of objections to free movement as being motivations by an aversion to hearing foreign voices is ridiculous.

No, "he" isn't lucky. He worked like f**k from a working class beginning (I went to school in the raploch) to acquire that skill set.

It's interesting that instead of openly debating the point as to free movement, you immediately get defensive behind straw man arguments. You mention those "left behind" - please build a creditable and persuasive argument as to the circumstances of those who are left behind within the context of the EU and an independent Scotland and detail to me as to why a brexit rUK would benefit them.

Also, when you are at it, define exactly who the "left behind" are. Do they only include indigenous citizens or can an immigrant be described as someone left behind by globalisation?

Your second straw man about foreign voices is even flimsier - it seems like you are fuelled by a distrust and aversion to those who are different and are angry about it - it seems that by attempting to paint it as deliberate simplification (I'm pretty sure you know it isn't but are painting it as such for personal reasons) is to play into the deliberately simple argument utilised by the leave campaign of us against the establishment that never really existed. It's a deliberate simplification of nuanced, political discussion that you are attempting to exploit by looking like an "Everyman" speaker - straight from the farage playbook.

Why are you so against those who want to come here and contribute to society?

[git-intae-thum]

7 minutes ago, JMDP said:

 

No, "he" isn't lucky. He worked like f**k from a working class beginning (I went to school in the raploch) to acquire that skill set.

It's interesting that instead of openly debating the point as to free movement, you immediately get defensive behind straw man arguments. You mention those "left behind" - please build a creditable and persuasive argument as to the circumstances of those who are left behind within the context of the EU and an independent Scotland and detail to me as to why a brexit rUK would benefit them.

Also, when you are at it, define exactly who the "left behind" are. Do they only include indigenous citizens or can an immigrant be described as someone left behind by globalisation?

Your second straw man about foreign voices is even flimsier - it seems like you are fuelled by a distrust and aversion to those who are different and are angry about it - it seems that by attempting to paint it as deliberate simplification (I'm pretty sure you know it isn't but are painting it as such for personal reasons) is to play into the deliberately simple argument utilised by the leave campaign of us against the establishment that never really existed. It's a deliberate simplification of nuanced, political discussion that you are attempting to exploit by looking like an "Everyman" speaker - straight from the farage playbook.

Why are you so against those who want to come here and contribute to society?

 

It is batshit mental to argue against immigration from a Scottish point of view.

We are having the demographic policy of the SE foisted on us when it is in no way suitable to the Scottish society or economy.

Scotlands ageing population needs young folk. Lots of them. Otherwise this will be a poor society with lots of poor pensioners in the future.

[Crùbag]

1 hour ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

He's lucky to have a skill set which means he is immune to the threat of his wages being driven down by an over supply of labour or his employment sector being uprooted to another country.
He'll mend those left behind by such global forces though eh?
The deliberate simplification of objections to free movement as being motivations by an aversion to hearing foreign voices is ridiculous.

People don't become teachers, or nurses, doctors, scientists whatever by being lucky. Moreso if you're working class.

As to 'global forces' - are you railing against international capitalism here? Fine, but I can't recall seeing you put forward a socialist agenda before. Ironic that we once criticised the Eastern Bloc for erecting walls to stop free movement, now we're rejoicing in it but at the same time expecting global capitalism to provide us with cheap food, clothes and technology.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

People don't become teachers, or nurses, doctors, scientists whatever by being lucky. Moreso if you're working class.

So unskilled workers are just lazy thickos then?

[DrewDon]

Quite possibly the greatest non sequitur that P&B has ever produced, that.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Quite possibly the greatest non sequitur that P&B has ever produced, that.

He's just another broken *** looking for bites tbh.

[Crùbag]

1 hour ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

So unskilled workers are just lazy thickos then?

Are you saying they're just unlucky?

[welshbairn]

Automation is by far the main cause of the decline of decent jobs and wages, people blame immigration because it's easier to blame individuals than find a solution to a very difficult structural problem. And it's only going to get worse. I can't get my head around who's going to be buying all the goods produced by empty factories. When Trump talks about jobs getting stolen from American workers, and he's right, 5.6 million manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2010, but most of them didn't go to Mexico or China, 85% got automated. And don't think if you're in an office you'll be safe, with advancing AI and voice recognition only people at the very top and very bottom will be safe.  We can't and shouldn't try and stop technological advancement, but we really have to rethink how we value and reward jobs that humans can still do better than machines. Most are paid minimum wage and treated worse than a coffee machine.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62

Edited March 19, 2017 by welshbairn

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

Robots are lucky, go-getting smart arses. 

[Granny Danger]

36 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Automation is by far the main cause of the decline of decent jobs and wages, people blame immigration because it's easier to blame individuals than find a solution to a very difficult structural problem. And it's only going to get worse. I can't get my head around who's going to be buying all the goods produced by empty factories. When Trump talks about jobs getting stolen from American workers, and he's right, 5.6 million manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2010, but most of them didn't go to Mexico or China, 85% got automated. And don't think if you're in an office you'll be safe, with advancing AI and voice recognition only people at the very top and very bottom will be safe.  We can't and shouldn't try and stop technological advancement, but we really have to rethink how we value and reward jobs that humans can still do better than machines. Most are paid minimum wage and treated worse than a coffee machine.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62

The idea that automation is bad in any way, shape or form is crazy; it is quite literally Luddism with the term literally being used literally.

Creating more things with less people is a great idea, it's how society adapts to that reality that's the challenge.  

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The idea that automation is bad in any way, shape or form is crazy; it is quite literally Luddism with the term literally being used literally.

Creating more things with less people is a great idea, it's how society adapts to that reality that's the challenge.  

Well played, sir.

[welshbairn]

27 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The idea that automation is bad in any way, shape or form is crazy; it is quite literally Luddism with the term literally being used literally.

Creating more things with less people is a great idea, it's how society adapts to that reality that's the challenge.  

The Luddites weren't against new technology, they were protesting about skilled and well paid workers being put out of a job, and low paid unskilled workers trained to work the new machinery instead. There's a distinct parallel with what's happening now. I have no idea how we'll adapt but blaming immigrants and foreign producers is not the solution.

Edited March 19, 2017 by welshbairn

[git-intae-thum]

35 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The Luddites weren't against new technology, they were protesting about skilled and well paid workers being put out of a job, and low paid unskilled workers trained to work the new machinery instead. There's a distinct parallel with what's happening now. I have no idea how we'll adapt but blaming immigrants and foreign producers is not the solution.

From an education point of view, we should ensure our kids are learning code. Just as important if not more so than most other "traditional" subjects.

Code literacy opens up the new world.

[welshbairn]

20 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

From an education point of view, we should ensure our kids are learning code. Just as important if not more so than most other "traditional" subjects.

Code literacy opens up the new world.

I agree, but it won't be long before programmers will tell computers in English or Chinese what they want and it will be translated into coding. Wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the early higher level jobs to go. It would be worrying if only computers knew how they work in a generation or so.

Edited March 19, 2017 by welshbairn

[Granny Danger]

52 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The Luddites weren't against new technology, they were protesting about skilled and well paid workers being put out of a job, and low paid unskilled workers trained to work the new machinery instead. There's a distinct parallel with what's happening now. I have no idea how we'll adapt but blaming immigrants and foreign producers is not the solution.

You're pedantry and inaccuracies aside I'm not disagreeing with you.

I think globalisation has many dangers but the solution is forms of regulation aimed at promoting greater wealth equality between countries and within countries not blaming foreign producers or imposing restrictions on the movement of labour.

The G20 decision to walk back its anti-protectionist position should be of significant concern.

 

 

[welshbairn]

18 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

You're pedantry and inaccuracies aside I'm not disagreeing with you.

I think globalisation has many dangers but the solution is forms of regulation aimed at promoting greater wealth equality between countries and within countries not blaming foreign producers or imposing restrictions on the movement of labour.

The G20 decision to walk back its anti-protectionist position should be of significant concern.

If I were a conspiracy theorist I'd be thinking the global elites are stirring up populist nationalism and xenophobia as a diversion to stop people realising what's really happening, they're still getting richer but nearly everyone else is getting poorer, and it's automation that's doing it, not globalisation. And nobody has a clue what to do about it, but their coffers are still getting filled. f**k the next generation when there will be too few consumers to keep the cycle going. But I'm not a conspiracy theorist so that's not what's happening. We're walking blind into a world with only a small fraction of valued and decently rewarded jobs needed for the working population. Nobody's preparing or even thinking about what to do about it.

[pandarilla]

If I were a conspiracy theorist I'd be thinking the global elites are stirring up populist nationalism and xenophobia as a diversion to stop people realising what's really happening, they're still getting richer but nearly everyone else is getting poorer, and it's automation that's doing it, not globalisation. And nobody has a clue what to do about it, but their coffers are still getting filled. f**k the next generation when there will be too few consumers to keep the cycle going. But I'm not a conspiracy theorist so that's not what's happening. We're walking blind into a world with only a small fraction of valued and decently rewarded jobs needed for the working population. Nobody's preparing or even thinking about what to do about it.

Global elites are not quite that well organised. But that's absolutely their view.

[Mr Heliums]

7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Nobody's preparing or even thinking about what to do about it.

I don't think there's a conspiracy. But when you look at a company like Kodak, which once employed a 250,000 people, being replaced in terms of market value by a company like Instagram – which had 13 full-time employees – you see the direction of travel: more money to fewer people. But I don't think the global elites are stirring it up: people are complicit in narrowing of power. We give Facebook and Instagram the money happily. We walk into Tesco and use the automated checkouts because we think it's easier.

The trouble is that when we look for something to blame, it's much easier to look at immigrants as the cause.

[Afro]

44 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Personally, the benefits of this are that I can decide tomorrow to work anywhere in the EU.
From that I get personal freedom.

From an employment point of view it increases the pool to choose talented workers from.

From a scientific point of view we get free access to the best european researchers.

From another employment view we get access to people who WANT to do vital jobs many of our young people are no longer interested in regardless of pay, such as cleaning, labouring, farm work etc.

It encourages diversity in our country which normalises the situation where different nationalities, religions and races freely mix. This is a good thing in terms of reducing racism etc. and removing barriers between different people.

It brings with it a greater variety of viewpoints on all aspects of society which is a good thing. Diversity of opinion, attitudes, culture and thought processes brings about better solutions to a whole range of problems in science, engineering and society in general.

There is very little in the way of a downside TBH.

I never thought I'd see the day, but I actually agree with every word you've just written. Very well put.

As many have said, Scotland does have a population deficit, and free movement should be vital to addressing this issue. I just cannot see how WM would either devolve immigration post-Brexit, or formulate a deal suited to Scotland's needs. I'd contest that without it, we'll be rooked in 30-40 years time unless there's a dramatic change.

[Ad Lib]

On 15/03/2017 at 10:54, git-intae-thum said:

Well the numbers being quoted as fact by the unionist politicians and regurgitated as fact by the media are not correct.  If they do not know this they are incompetent. If they do know this they are being less than truthful in their portrayal of the figures.

As we now know them not to be correct, one must wonder what the hidden amount of Scotland/ rest of the world trade is. 

You do realise that almost all economic statistics are derived from estimates using, among other sources, independent surveys, right? Especially imports. They can get a rough estimate from sales taxes and customs and excise duties actually returned to national tax authorities, but that cannot tell them beyond informed estimates about economic activity not covered by or attracting no relevant taxes. Both national GDP figures and balances of trade are, always have been, and always will be, estimates and not something done to the level of specificity of a company's accounts checking-off every pound and pence. This is just as true for trade between independent countries, for which at most there is somewhat more reporting and data, as it is for representative figures for trade within parts of the same country.

The important part here is not that these surveys and other collected data do not cover literally every export transaction. They cover enough of market activity, and represent trends closely enough, that mean estimates can be made with a high level of confidence (high 90s%) to be within 5% of what they actually are. The actual position may be marginally at variance with the headline figure, but the point is they can say, and almost never be wrong, that they are not wildly incorrect.

This also explains why GDP and PSBR figures are often retrospectively rated up or down, sometimes slightly, sometimes drastically. Economics isn't accounting.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Ad Lib