No Voters - what say you?

[RussellAnderson]

Fide pal, there's plenty of places on this forum to wind up No-voters. This thread's precise purpose is to avoid all that. Away to the other threads min. 

[WFAANW]

1 minute ago, RussellAnderson said:

Fide pal, there's plenty of places on this forum to wind up No-voters. This thread's precise purpose is to avoid all that. Away to the other threads min. 

[Diamonds are Forever]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Maybe I am biased but I can understand the logic of wanting to move from a country if you think that you are being denied the opportunity to govern yourself.

 

Except that isn't the scenario though, in fact it is literally the total opposite. In that scenario (2 referenda in 5 years, both no votes) the country would have had 2 opportunities to vote to govern ourselves, and turned both of them down. I'm not sure where the being 'denied the opportunity to govern' ourselves comes in. If you believe Scotland should be an independent nation able to govern itself, it makes absolutely no sense to go in a huff when that exact same would-be independent nation democratically votes for something that you disagree with.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Diamonds are Forever

[Fide]

1 hour ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

Just so you know, you trotting out this pish, you flouncing off the forum after no won the last time, it isn't impressive. It isn't honourable, it isn't noble, it's tragic. You make yourself look pathetic and in the case of this thread you damage the cause you so childishly purport to think the only reasonable course of action. Wind your neck in and your fucking age, you clown.

I've highlighted all the massively hypocritical parts of your rage-fuelled post.

HTH.

ETA: And btw, I'd have shut up an age ago if certain posters didn't make a huge song and dance about it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Fide

[milhouse]

It's nice to come on P&B which is full of Yessers, but if we want to win we are genuinely going to have to start (now) talking to auld duffers, colleagues, relatives, bite our tongues as they go through the too wee, too poor, too stupid routine and ask "is there anything that would make you vote yes?"

 

If a referendum actually happens, that is.

[Shades75]

4 hours ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

Except that isn't the scenario though, in fact it is literally the total opposite. In that scenario (2 referenda in 5 years, both no votes) the country would have had 2 opportunities to vote to govern ourselves, and turned both of them down. I'm not sure where the being 'denied the opportunity to govern' ourselves comes in. If you believe Scotland should be an independent nation able to govern itself, it makes absolutely no sense to go in a huff when that exact same would-be independent nation democratically votes for something that you disagree with.

You're making a decent point here.....

....and I'm a rabid yesser.

[pandarilla]

Outstanding thread - blows the other ones out the water.

We have to allow cynical voices a chance to put arguments across on here. The echo chamber last time did not help any particular cause.

In 2014 Andrew Marr stated that Scotland was the most politically literate and engaged nation on the planet.

If yes is going to win it's going to have to persuade those the remained quite quiet last time. I do hope the tone of the bt campaign improves to help that happen - but we'll see.

[gavin_3110]

Maybe I am biased but I can understand the logic of wanting to move from a country if you think that you are being denied the opportunity to govern yourself.  I don't see the logic of wanting to move from a country because the people in that country have won the right to govern themselves.

I don't understand the logic of this actually. Presumably you'd have been happy when the UK voted to leave the EU? Taking decisions away from a European parliament and bringing them closer to home.

The whole concept of nationalism sits uneasily with me. I find it divisive. I see no differences between myself and the people we seek to separate from. I'm comfortable as British and Scottish.

I voted no last time unsurprisingly. I wasn't convinced by the economic arguments put forward and felt that for a large section of those on the Yes side the decision was underpinned exclusively by patriotism and anti-Englishness.

I think the whole subject and the nonsense from the protagonists on both sides is hugely tiresome.

This thread is a better read than any others to date and plenty reasonable voices on both sides, I'm not trying to be antagonistic in anything I've wrote.

[Baxter Parp]

7 minutes ago, gavin_3110 said:

 I see no differences between myself and the people we seek to separate from.

They keep voting Tory, we don't.

[Crùbag]

13 minutes ago, gavin_3110 said:

I don't understand the logic of this actually. Presumably you'd have been happy when the UK voted to leave the EU? Taking decisions away from a European parliament and bringing them closer to home.

The whole concept of nationalism sits uneasily with me. I find it divisive. I see no differences between myself and the people we seek to separate from. I'm comfortable as British and Scottish.

I voted no last time unsurprisingly. I wasn't convinced by the economic arguments put forward and felt that for a large section of those on the Yes side the decision was underpinned exclusively by patriotism and anti-Englishness.

I think the whole subject and the nonsense from the protagonists on both sides is hugely tiresome.

This thread is a better read than any others to date and plenty reasonable voices on both sides, I'm not trying to be antagonistic in anything I've wrote.

Some points - i'm very much pro self-determination and once independence is achieved there should be more devolution of power to local communities - more housing co-ops, community land ownership, community control over renewables etc... as we see in some Nordic countries. I don't see this as divisive - indeed we're reuniting Scotland with the international community and not being over-ruled by just one nation ten times our size. I'm very much an internationalist - I'm half-immigrant, albeit a 'white' one and my partner is EU. My kids speak three languages. As to Scotland, as Elaine C Smith said, it's not that we're better than anyone else, it's just that we're as good as anyone else.

Your second point is... bewildering to put it politely. Patriotism.. well, most Unionists I've heard say that they're proud patriotic Scots but not Nationalists. No Scot should feel ashamed of their own culture and most of us display patriotism at some point - usually sporting events. Nowt bad with that whatever your view on the constitution. As to anti-Englishness - I'd love to see examples of this. The Yes movement was patently multi-cultural including many English people and people of all races. Sure, there are bigots to be found in Scotland but unlike the Brexit movement, race, immigration or xenophobia played no part in Yes.

[Antlion]

It's a bit odd for people who profess to be uncomfortable with nationalism to prefer the jingoistic, Brexiting UK state. The UK is, as demonstrated by the last two referenda, more nationalistic than Scotland and, for my money, in a far more exclusivist, xenophobic way.

[RussellAnderson]

I don't understand the logic of this actually. Presumably you'd have been happy when the UK voted to leave the EU? Taking decisions away from a European parliament and bringing them closer to home.

My view is that not all decision-making is equal. Some decisions benefit from being made by those who are close to the issues. Social issues in particular, such as healthcare and education, should be tailored to the relevant population's needs.

Decisions where effects cross borders, such as trade, economics and particularly environment, need effective international governance. If we all look out for ourselves, no one benefits, so coordination on an international level really is to the benefit of sensible decisions. Scotland also has an ageing population, and immigration from the EU is beneficial. On a personal level I agree with free movement fundamentally. Like you said, people are people no matter what.

In the current UK situation we have the worst of both worlds. We're leaving the EU and all the benefits that brings, while still being governed by a parliament that doesn't reflect our population's problems. Holyrood is a halfway house that spends most of its time mitigating for the harm done by Westminster. The SNP's record in government hasn't been spotless, but they've done a passable job at worst.

I think the internationalist case for Yes is much stronger this time around, post-EU ref.

[Weesiecodal]

To be honest, I can see both sides of this battle between May and Sturgeon. 

I absolutely agree that the best time for the Scottish electorate to vote would be once the deal has been agreed. We then enter the six month (ish) period when the EU and individual EU parliaments debate and ratify the deal. This would be the perfect time for us to also debate what's on offer and to decide whether it's what we want or not. If we vote for Independence, it's easier for us to negotiate entry into EFTA or EEA or full EU membership. 

However, the deal made by the Tories will be based on the UK leaving. Negotiations will include fishing, farming, movement of people etc and other areas which are particularly pertinent to Scotland. So once the deal is done, it could go to the EU for ratification and they say "aye, that's all good, on you bash", then we vote to leave the UK, and suddenly the deal they've reached is null and void. Or, the EU would say "well, we want to wait to see what the Scottish people vote for before we decide to go ahead". But the Tories argue that we can't vote til we know what it is we are voting for.....but we won't know what we are voting for because the EU aren't going to commit til they know what Scotland's decision is.

It's unworkable.

I honestly can't believe the Tories haven't been saying this already. Shows how utterly dumb they are I suppose. I think Nicola Sturgeon has played a blinder up til now...... long may it continue 

[Granny Danger]

7 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

They keep voting Tory, we don't.

Not wholly true but still very important.  People in England are more inclined to vote Tory and since they outnumber us 10-1 they dictate the flavour of government.

Of course we should no forget that the Tories have a majority in Westminster with only 38% of the popular vote.  That's a fucking scandal and many of the problems the UK face is a result of the unfair FPTP voting system.  Theresa May's legitimacy as PM is undermined by this outdated and unfair method of voting.

[vikingTON]

 

7 hours ago, gavin_3110 said:

The whole concept of nationalism sits uneasily with me. I find it divisive. I see no differences between myself and the people we seek to separate from. I'm comfortable as British and Scottish.

Claims concept of nationalism "sits uneasily" with him; states literally three sentences later that he is "comfortable as British and Scottish". Assigning yourself a "British" national identity means that you have embraced "the whole concept of nationalism". It is no more or less "nationalist" to do so than identifying yourself as Scottish and not British, or campaigning for Scottish independence. 

So there isn't in fact scope for you to lecture anyone about the evils of divisive nationalism. 

[vikingTON]

13 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Not wholly true but still very important.  People in England are more inclined to vote Tory and since they outnumber us 10-1 they dictate the flavour of government.

Of course we should no forget that the Tories have a majority in Westminster with only 38% of the popular vote.  That's a fucking scandal and many of the problems the UK face is a result of the unfair FPTP voting system.  Theresa May's legitimacy as PM is undermined by this outdated and unfair method of voting.

The UK electorate had the choice of using a more proportional method of voting with the AV referendum - it was decisively rejected. There is no threat to a Prime Minister's legitimacy, from a system that the UK electorate tacitly backed just a few years ago. 

[pandarilla]

I don't understand the logic of this actually. Presumably you'd have been happy when the UK voted to leave the EU? Taking decisions away from a European parliament and bringing them closer to home.

The whole concept of nationalism sits uneasily with me. I find it divisive. I see no differences between myself and the people we seek to separate from. I'm comfortable as British and Scottish.

I voted no last time unsurprisingly. I wasn't convinced by the economic arguments put forward and felt that for a large section of those on the Yes side the decision was underpinned exclusively by patriotism and anti-Englishness.

I think the whole subject and the nonsense from the protagonists on both sides is hugely tiresome.

This thread is a better read than any others to date and plenty reasonable voices on both sides, I'm not trying to be antagonistic in anything I've wrote.

Gavin can I ask about the anti englishness you refer to. Is this through contact with yes voters or campaigners? Or off the telly or other media?

It's something I've seen very little of I have to admit. Sometimes kids in school get a bit close to the bone (when doing a topic like Wallace and Bruce) but once you explain it to them they usually come round to reasoned thinking.

My anti englishness, like I suspect most yes voters, is limited to sporting situations only - and I'd describe it as as healthy sporting rivalry. I was proud to work alongside an English yes voter last time.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

Too many people have taken entrenched, tribalistic standpoints on this issue for shifting of position to occur.

 

Even on this thread you can see that plenty are struggling to suppress their utter contempt for the opposing side, others can't hide it.

 

Unionists argue that everything would be shit if we broke up and nationalists promise that it would be all milk and honey. Neither side is willing or able to be honest about the situation or admit to unknowns.

 

The sneering self-righteous, superior, arrogant, way that too many on the yes side ram their opinions down people's throats and their contemptuous, dismissive approach to no voters just reinforces opposition stances and makes it absolutely certain that few will change their mind or even be willing to concede that another viewpoint might have some validity.

 

 

[Chapelhall chap]

1 minute ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Too many people have taken entrenched, tribalistic standpoints on this issue for shifting of position to occur.

Even on this thread you can see that plenty are struggling to suppress their utter contempt for the opposing side, others can't hide it.

Unionists argue that everything would be shit if we broke up and nationalists promise that it would be all milk and honey. Neither side is willing or able to be honest about the situation or admit to unknowns.

The sneering self-righteous, superior, arrogant, way that too many on the yes side ram their opinions down people's throats and their contemptuous, dismissive approach to no voters just reinforces opposition stances and makes it absolutely certain that few will change their mind or even be willing to concede that another viewpoint.

can be valid?

[kevthedee]

Undecided at the moment,I want to see a white paper from the SNP and see what information they provide before I make a decision.