renton Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 10 minutes ago, Fuctifano said: This is pretty much it for me. A yes vote would probably cause me personally some hassle tax and work wise as self-employed and would (hopefully) get work from both Scotland and rUK post-indy but I’ve always felt without being a total tin hat merchant that if we were that much of a basket case that WM would be quite happy to let us go and we won’t achieve our full economic potential with the current setup. Sadly I can’t see the EU issue being enough to swing the difference nor the new younger voters in 2018/19 (was it not ages 21-30 that were biggest Yes rather than 16-21 which was 50/50?). My old man passed away last year so that’s one off the No total from 2014 anyway Obviously a couple of folk on this thread who were No and now Yes or at least swithering, has anyone gone the other way? It’s obviously naïve to assume everyone who voted yes last time will do again but other than “referendum fatigue” I haven’t seen anything to suggest why, and even this seems a bit odd… I mean I’m already getting fed up of twitter but come whatever polling day it is I’ll still have the energy to stick a cross in a box. 16 and 17 year olds on admittedly small sample sizes looked pretty good for yes. The 18-25 group looked much less good for Yes, probably because that included a lot of Uni students from the EU and down south, which wasn't happy hunting ground for Yes last time out, you'd assume that'd be partially offset this time. I think the Edinbrugh Uni study had yes ahead up to the 40-49 age bracket which was tied. It then went No exponentially beyond that demographic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernJambo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I started reading through this thread but gave up at page 4, sorry if someone else has said what I'm going to say. I voted yes last time, knew I would from the off. This time I'm not sure, the UK isn't very stable just now with us leaving the EU, so I don't really know what I'd be voting to leave, or what we do if we do leave. Join the EU? Folk talking about "if they'll take Scotland" and "back of the queue" are just spouting pish imo. Who else is in the queue and why wouldn't they want us to join?What's making me think I'll vote yes, and I probably will (or, at worst spoil my paper. I wouldn't vote no), is I'm fed up Tories, and the complete lack of opposition, controlling us when we actively vote against them. Scotland voted to keep the UK in the EU, and we've been ignored. Not only that, when those stupid c***s won it came to light they had no plan at all. That fucks me off. So I'll probably vote yes but I'd like to see a good, realistic plan of the next move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: Agreed to an extent, but I think the difference between a soft and a hard Brexit is already clear enough to be able to decide which way to jump if you view things pragmatically. Hard Brexit means a hard border and having a different currency from rUK, if Scotland is going to be in the EU, while rUK isn't even going to have EEA status, because the Solway and Tweed becomes the outer border of the EU's custom union under that scenario. All the emotional appeals in the world and pictures filled with tartan and majestic landscapes are not going to change that from being a shite state of affairs to be in and stumbling into that sort of future on a 51:49 decision is not a recipe for stable politics down the road (what happens if a Unionist majority emerges in the first post-independence parliament?). The SNP really should have stuck to the 55% Yes in the polls for six months yardstick for deciding whether to proceed, but Nicola Sturgeon knows that would split her party, so now it's time to get gubbed on a longshot gamble of a referendum for a second time in five years. This "hard border" stuff will be repeated ad nauseam and yet one of the first outcomes of the Brexit vote was that the UK and Ireland would work very closely to retain a flexible, sensible border that wouldn't kill trade between the 2 countries. We're surely not going to see that sort of hard border scaremongering pish again. It's already been debunked - unless of course the sanctity of a land border with England is more precious than one for another "equal" partner in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMFCfan1886 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I'll be voting yes, hope there are many others in my position who changed their minds after backing no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Just now, HTG said: This "hard border" stuff will be repeated ad nauseam and yet one of the first outcomes of the Brexit vote was that the UK and Ireland would work very closely to retain a flexible, sensible border that wouldn't kill trade between the 2 countries. Article 50 hasn't even been invoked yet, so how do you know that's what will happen? The negotiation is going to be between the EU and the UK and not between the RoI and the UK. The precedent on what is almost certainly going to happen on that has already been set by what has happened in the former Yugoslavia where the EU border runs along what used to be the unmarked internal bounday line between two component parts of what used to be a single sovereign state: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/17/ireland-brexit-headache-border If Theresa May had opted for EEA status and a soft Brexit then the border would be like Norway-Sweden post-independence and I would be in the Yes camp at this point as a hardcore Remainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said: Yes, I'm happy to be governed by the UK parliament in Westminster. I think I already made that clear. I'm certainly happier with that arrangement than with Holyrood doing it. I haven't one iota of respect for the white elephant that is the Scottish parliament. Christ on a fucking jetski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DI Bruce Robertson Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Actually I do sort of want to expand on voting Leave last year. I'd spent a couple of years beforehand switching between thinking we should leave and thinking we should stay. Perhaps it was naivety, but I sort of bought in to the more libertarian sort of view where immigration wasn't really an issue for me (it's something to be encouraged, not dismissed) but we could also level the immigration playing field and make it easier for non-EU workers to come here. I would also have been perfectly happy with some sort of EFTA type deal, which would have been my preferred arrangement as we could still pursue our own trade agreements, which was important to me. Aside from this, I think it was better for the EU that we left also. Clearly there is some sort of consensus among many of the other states for further integration - which I think is necessary to sustain the Euro as a viable currency - something which the UK would never subscribe to. In a way, we've been holding them back, being an awkward neighbour for a while now. Whist I don't think it'll be a disaster, hard Brexit isn't really what I was voting for, but perhaps I should have realised this was the most likely scenario when I voted. Staying in the UK is more important to me than leaving the EU (and whilst I wanted to leave, I genuinely didn't envisage that we would, which made me consider it less when voting) and so I'll regret my vote to an extent if we do end up leaving the rest of the UK. However, one of the main reasons I wouldn't vote for independence is that I'd essentially be voting to join the EU again, an EU that we'd have even less influence in than the UK did. Good answer, and thanks. A couple of further questions I'd like to ask if you'd be kind enough to answer?You talk of levelling the playing field as regards non-EU immigrants. This has always been at the behest of the UK government, why couldn't this be achieved without leaving the EU? Or are you talking about numbers remaining similar but more coming from outwith the EU and EU numbers reducing to accommodate this? Secondly, if the majority of the UK disagrees with staying in the EU, and to be fair, you've given a coherent argument as to why you voted that way, rather than "control & stuff" do you not feel also, that recent SG results show that Scotland has an ideologically different view to rUK on many issues? This was cited as one of your reasons for voting Leave, does the same not apply to Scotland- you even mentioned the bad neighbours, sorry but that's how I feel regards rUK, and I think we'd get along great as neighbours & allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 22 minutes ago, renton said: 16 and 17 year olds on admittedly small sample sizes looked pretty good for yes. The 18-25 group looked much less good for Yes, probably because that included a lot of Uni students from the EU and down south, which wasn't happy hunting ground for Yes last time out, you'd assume that'd be partially offset this time. I think the Edinbrugh Uni study had yes ahead up to the 40-49 age bracket which was tied. It then went No exponentially beyond that demographic. The big issue will be getting the 16-17 year olds out to vote. No point in them being overwhelmingly YES if the turnout of this demographic is low. Hopefully the 18-25 group will also become more pro Independence and, again, be motivated to actually cast their ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 4 hours ago, McSpreader said: Rather English than French and German but........There have been plenty of Scottish prime ministers of the UK making these decisions.......makes you think, right? ( You DO actually think, right?) Which scottish prime ministers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Marsh said: I voted No last time because I felt there wasn't enough assurances of how a lot of things would be done if we became independent, but I will be firmly voting Yes this time as I'm now fed up of Westminster's lying and generally not giving a f**k about Scotland. How can anyone give assurances what would happen in a future referendum? Or more importantly would you believe them? Remember the folk running the No vote at the last Indy referendum. Said we would be in Shangri-La if we voted NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 Just now, madwullie said: Which scottish prime ministers? He's going to tell you Gordon Brown is "plenty". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzy Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Wee Willie said: How can anyone give assurances what would happen in a future referendum? Or more importantly would you believe them? Remember the folk running the No vote at the last Indy referendum. Said we would be in Shangri-La if we voted NO. Both sides lied, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 How many scottish prime ministers will there be in the wake of evel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, dogmc said: How many scottish prime ministers will there be in the wake of evel? Very good point. I think it is now very nearly impossible for anyone from a Scottish constituency to ever again get the top UK gig. United Kingdom of equals eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said: Yes, I'm happy to be governed by the UK parliament in Westminster. I think I already made that clear. I'm certainly happier with that arrangement than with Holyrood doing it. I haven't one iota of respect for the white elephant that is the Scottish parliament. 30 minutes ago, Fide said: Christ on a fucking jetski. My thoughts exactly 9 minutes ago, Wee Willie said: How can anyone give assurances what would happen in a future referendum? Or more importantly would you believe them? Remember the folk running the No vote at the last Indy referendum. Said we would be in Shangri-La if we voted NO. 6 minutes ago, Nizzy said: Both sides lied, mate. I agree but these c**ts won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle_do_nicely Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 5 hours ago, jupe1407 said: A chance to consign Tory rule to the bin for generations to come? f**k aye. Or worse still, to stop any chance of UKIP getting significant influence in Parliament and subsequently over matters affecting Scotland while we still can. I can't quite believe I'm typing that but then you can never, ever underestimate the stupidity of the Little Englander electorate, and we're in a world where Leicester City are the current Premier League Champions, Brexit is happening, Rangers exist but as some kind of grotesque summoned shade type... thing compared to what they were with Laudrup etc. and Donald Trump is the President of the United States of America. I cannot envisage any circumstances under which I would vote for a Unionist party or vote against Scottish independence. Firm, firm yes. Wherever it takes us, whatever it takes as the old ad goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelmen Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Yes, I'm happy to be governed by the UK parliament in Westminster. I think I already made that clear. I'm certainly happier with that arrangement than with Holyrood doing it. I haven't one iota of respect for the white elephant that is the Scottish parliament. I sort of agree with you, the Scottish parliament is a bit for show. Westminster gives it some money and tells it use it as it sees fit but all the important stuff is kept in London where we have no power to influence it.It is time the Scottish parliament governed everything about the country and the only way that can happen is independence. Then the SNP or whoever is in government can be held to task about the job it is doing as they have no one to blame but themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 If you're serious about independence going head then people like yourself would do well to reel in the redneck comments as it genuinely puts off the type of people that have a more considered approach to such an important decision and these are the people that have to be won round for the Yes campaign to be successful. What redneck comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee_62 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Oh dear - this thread is a nice wee snapshot of how the debate went last time and will no doubt continue for the next couple of years. I managed to get through 3/4 pages of this and realised that pretty much every "yes" entry is accepted at face value and every "no" voter is re quoted and given information as to where they are going wrong with their rationale. The only wager I'll put on is that Scotland will be divided and bitter for a number of years regardless of the outcome. ...and I was an undecided until late on last time before coming to the conclusion that the Leave campaign did not completely make the case for me and I hope that they don't just focus on the EU this time, they still need to make the case. (I voted SNP in the UK and Scottish elections, so I will be an "easy" switch to yes, if the case is made) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostin' Kev Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said: What redneck comments? Any one where you say you're voting Yes with offering any reasonable rationale for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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