NHS Crisis? What Crisis?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

22 minutes ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

That's massively misleading. What matters is the band, not the actual increment you're on within that band. You can have two people who are both band 7 and one is 1 rung higher on the increments. That doesn't mean they're more senior than the other - it just means they've been in the job 1 year longer than the other. Their responsibilities etc would be exactly the same.

Edit: A quick Google also suggests that rather than 'almost 40', there are 28 points on the scale between the bottom of a band 7 and top of a band 9, including the smaller bands 8a, b, c and d.

This ^

It's the same at local authorities. There are a number of bands, more than the NHS in fact, but each has several increments, with each new increment being reached each year the employee is within that post. 

I obviously should have used the word "bands" instead of "grades", however it's obvious within the context of the conversation where McSpreader had gone massively wrong. It's cute that wee Rab thought he'd won the internet though 

[RedRob72]

This ^
It's the same at local authorities. There are a number of bands, more than the NHS in fact, but each has several increments, with each new increment being reached each year the employee is within that post. 
I obviously should have used the word "bands" instead of "grades", however it's obvious within the context of the conversation where McSpreader had gone massively wrong. It's cute that wee Rab thought he'd won the internet though 

Whether there are 30 or 40 is immaterial, you say yourself that there are more in Local Government, (Education FE/HE are the same), only such a complex and unwieldy system would exist in the public sector.

It's good that you're at least attempting to think for yourself though, most encouraging.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Whether there are 30 or 40 is immaterial, you say yourself that there are more in Local Government, (Education FE/HE are the same), only such a complex and unwieldy system would exist in the public sector.

It's good that you're at least attempting to think for yourself though, most encouraging.

What's complex about it?

You get a job in say, Band 7, and go up a grade/increment yearly as you gain experience in that post.

[Baxter Parp]

2 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

Whether there are 30 or 40 is immaterial, you say yourself that there are more in Local Government, (Education FE/HE are the same), only such a complex and unwieldy system would exist in the public sector.

 

 

Having been a public employee I know that this is bullshit. Kneejerk criticism of a perfectly reasonable system.

[welshbairn]

15 hours ago, CountyFan said:

  Tell people with lifestyle-related illnesses to get to the back of the queue 

That would seriously shorten my life expectancy.

[Cyclizine]

Whether there are 30 or 40 is immaterial, you say yourself that there are more in Local Government, (Education FE/HE are the same), only such a complex and unwieldy system would exist in the public sector.

It's good that you're at least attempting to think for yourself though, most encouraging.

I don't see why you think it's so complex, it's just a common set of payscales. Surely that's easier than several hundred thousand individual negotiated contracts?

[Wee Willie]

33 minutes ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Just quickly expanding on this - it's worth saying that the level at which you become 'management' is totally undefined. For example a warehouse manager or porter manager might be managing quite a large group of people and still only be a band 3. Similarly, highly qualified people in the labs etc, in roles for which you need postgraduate degrees would usually be at least a band 7 but not necessarily be 'managing' anyone. 

A senior charge nurse in charge of a ward will usually be a band 7 - I would tend to class anything in band 8a or above as 'management' as that's generally the point at which clinical staff stop wearing scrubs and start wearing office clothes. That varies wildly though and won't be appropriate, particularly in highly qualified areas.

Can I expand on this as well.
I remember, I think, when Maggie T was on the go that the Plebs in the NHS went on strike for better wages & conditions.
The TV cameras were at all the big hospitals to see the management personnel rolling up their sleeves and doing the menial work that the plebs did.
It was also pointed out that they wouldn't do it for the plebs wages.

 

[Baxter Parp]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/09/ae-in-england-sees-worst-ever-delays-in-january-leak-suggests

A&E in England sees worst ever delays in January, leak suggests

Sturgeon must ans...oh.

[Big Fifer]

Tbh as much as I dislike the Tories I can't help but think this NHS crisis would be happening regardless. I'm not convinced 30 years ago that any government was planning an NHS for the future, simply an NHS that might see them re-elected in a few years. Failure to plan ahead has seen us reach this point, but a 2017 government getting an NHS system in place that's fool proof in 2035 won't win them votes in the here and now.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, Big Fifer said:

Tbh as much as I dislike the Tories I can't help but think this NHS crisis would be happening regardless. I'm not convinced 30 years ago that any government was planning an NHS for the future, simply an NHS that might see them re-elected in a few years. Failure to plan ahead has seen us reach this point, but a 2017 government getting an NHS system in place that's fool proof in 2035 won't win them votes in the here and now.

That's a fair point.

[Baxter Parp]

3 hours ago, Big Fifer said:

Tbh as much as I dislike the Tories I can't help but think this NHS crisis would be happening regardless. I'm not convinced 30 years ago that any government was planning an NHS for the future, simply an NHS that might see them re-elected in a few years. Failure to plan ahead has seen us reach this point, but a 2017 government getting an NHS system in place that's fool proof in 2035 won't win them votes in the here and now.

You don't think not cutting £22Bn from the NHS budget would help?

[Baxter Parp]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-division-of-principles/

PROF. ALLYSON POLLOCK: "if you think there’s a crisis in Scotland it’s nothing like what’s going on – and I’m here south of the border, both at times in London and in Newcastle – it’s nothing like the scale of the devastation that’s being now wrought in England."

[Fide]

6 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-division-of-principles/

PROF. ALLYSON POLLOCK: "if you think there’s a crisis in Scotland it’s nothing like what’s going on – and I’m here south of the border, both at times in London and in Newcastle – it’s nothing like the scale of the devastation that’s being now wrought in England."

The entire transcript of that interview should be printed off and posted through every door in Scotland.

[Baxter Parp]

[Wee Willie]

12 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

These kinda polls annoy me.
I would prefer if they showed the votes in Scotland separately.
Reading that I'm none the wiser as to the percentage in Scotland.

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Wee Willie
made an arse of it.

[mizfit]

I'd like to hope they don't seriously discuss privatisation, but with this Tory government it really wouldn't surprise me. 

 

The question is, would that be what turned people away from them in future elections, or would people praise it? 

[Todders]

Whether there are 30 or 40 is immaterial, you say yourself that there are more in Local Government, (Education FE/HE are the same), only such a complex and unwieldy system would exist in the public sector.

It's good that you're at least attempting to think for yourself though, most encouraging.

Its only complex if you're an idiot who can't count tbf.

[RedRob72]

 

Its only complex if you're an idiot who can't count tbf.

 

Have a wee swatch at the 'agenda for change' management grades/pay scales both clinical & non-clinical, and then tell me who can't count.

God forbid anyone have a poke at the soft fat underbelly of the Public Sector sacred cow eh!?

I sacked chasing NHS contracts years ago, the fragmentation of buying points and the complexity of the decision making process was so frustrating it just wasn't worth it. Don't even get me started on trying to get paid, once we'd actually completed the work.

[Cyclizine]

 
Have a wee swatch at the 'agenda for change' management grades/pay scales both clinical & non-clinical, and then tell me who can't count.
God forbid anyone have a poke at the soft fat underbelly of the Public Sector sacred cow eh!?
I sacked chasing NHS contracts years ago, the fragmentation of buying points and the complexity of the decision making process was so frustrating it just wasn't worth it. Don't even get me started on trying to get paid, once we'd actually completed the work.

I've already linked to this. There's no such thing as Clinical/Non-clinical payscales. Everyone apart from doctors and dentists are on AFC payscales. It's not difficult.

[RedRob72]

I've already linked to this. There's no such thing as Clinical/Non-clinical payscales. Everyone apart from doctors and dentists are on AFC payscales. It's not difficult.

I didn't say there was a difference between C/Non C, didn't I say it included both? Movement and progression between pay grades is certainly different.
On your last point, are GP's and Practice Managers on a relative pay scale with colleagues in Acute/Mental Health & Community Care, with a similar responsibility?