A fully integrated pyramid system - Proposal

[Father Ted]

I do agree, there is a gulf between North and East/West, excluding a few.

Surely after initial period, teams would find their level. You have to start somewhere.

EOS & SOS Leagues are about junior level or worse.

[Hillonearth]

9 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

A simple point, the Lowland League has been running for three seasons, and still we see no Junior teams joining, which they are all quite capable off irrespective of the SJFA, before you all come on and blame every aspect of the Junior game you should have a good look at what could be the problem with the Lowland League and the Pyramid, and just as a wee side issue , this Forum is the only place i see the Lowland League talked about i have never heard it mentioned on the terraces/pubs/clubs of any junior game i have been to in three years, there just doesnt seem to be any interest  This is my own opinion and not  any way to do with my club..

It's been talked about to death on here, but you're right - it's made little impact over our side of the country at least. Perhaps it's different in the East which is the LL's epicentre, but with only three clubs representing the most populous region of the country, two of whom are stuck away in new towns and the other playing 30 miles from the city it ostensibly represents it way never likely to be any other way over here. Even when East Kilbride were about to take on Celtic there was little consciousness of what league they played in - half a dozen people (including a couple that lived in EK!) must have asked me that week if we were in the same division as "that East Kilbride Thistle that are playing Celtic" 

There are a lot of things we can learn from the LL though - although it's not been the unqualified success some would have us believe, it certainly hasn't been the unmitigated disaster area others maintained it would be - and I do see there being some kind of a merger happening in the medium term, most likely coinciding with a move to a three-region model. The original proposal in this thread, while probably requiring a few tweaks, would I imagine be a good starting point for a way ahead. The three-region idea would almost certainly be the tipping point where clubs would start to seriously consider it - as things stand, there's no real appetite to join the current set-up and absolutely none to slot under it. Currently the bigger West sides are largely content with the status quo and a lot of the smaller ones are more concerned with the crocodile nearest the boat.

I also reckon most non-league football fans fall somewhere between the two extremes of being wedded to the idea of staying Junior at all costs and the hardcore pyramidistas. Ultimately, most will just want their club to survive and thrive, playing in the milieu that will allow those things to happen best regardless of what the label is.

 

[Burnie_man]

Splitting the Lowland League in East and West Divisions is the sensible way forward, as HTG points out, the demographics of our game almost demand it.  Both of these divisions with Junior involvement would be stronger than the current LL, so there should be no fear from SPFL clubs thinking they would be dropping into an even weaker standard than they do now, and it would also keep the basic Junior structure intact.  I think discussions along these lines would be productive, I don’t believe you would get a stonewall rejection from the LL, there has to be a realisation that what is currently below the LL is poor and on the point of collapse in the East with clubs “defecting” to the Juniors. Things have moved on in the intervening 4 years.

 

However, that’s getting into specifics and we’re nowhere near that, yet.

 

As I said previously, until we abolish the re-instatement rule thereby removing the last administrative barrier between Senior/Junior, and until TJ & Co receive clear instruction from member clubs to seek further talks regarding inclusion in the Pyramid with no pre-conditions, then we’re going nowhere.

 

Both of those “requirements” are in the power of the clubs to enact with a proposal and a show of hands at the AGM. Neither are these moves a commitment to join a Pyramid, just a show of willingness to talk.

[Ross.]

17 hours ago, hareskirky said:

So just move forward leave behind a decent group of people many of whom have kept many clubs going for many a year. Aye very good.

Who would be left behind exactly?

[Sergeant Wilson]

18 hours ago, marconi said:

I used floodlights as an example of costs involved as  i saw an estimate for the supply of a set last year  I am bemused  by this talk of boards and directors  .most junior teams are run by a committee elected yearly so all  you need to do is find enough like  minded  people,go to your clubs A.G.M. and take over. Then you can join any league you want.

It's hard enough finding enough like minded people to go to games.

[Burnie_man]

On 16/01/2017 at 22:48, Burnie_man said:

All that said, looks like the West Region are resurrecting the fully integrated idea that was eventually voted down a few seasons back

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/its-time-west-region-juniors-9618100#ICID=sharebar_twitter

 

 

Looks like the West want to replicate what's going on in the East

http://www.largsandmillportnews.com/sport/15053888.Major_shake_up_for_juniors_leagues_/

[Sergeant Wilson]

42 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Looks like the West want to replicate what's going on in the East

http://www.largsandmillportnews.com/sport/15053888.Major_shake_up_for_juniors_leagues_/

Is the reporter a junior supporter? The article is condescending in tone at best. That's before even considering the content of the proposal.

[glensmad]

Is the reporter a junior supporter? The article is condescending in tone at best. That's before even considering the content of the proposal.

To be fair, I didn't get that impression when I read the article a short time ago. It's certainly something worth discussing, perhaps on a thread of its own. But whether the clubs will vote for it is another thing.

[Sergeant Wilson]

5 minutes ago, glensmad said:

 

To be fair, I didn't get that impression when I read the article a short time ago. It's certainly something worth discussing, perhaps on a thread of its own. But whether the clubs will vote for it is another thing.

 

My mistake, I meant to quote the Record version.

[Killiepiyo]

Simulation I ran last week out of interest using FM17, promoted through playoff vs Edinburgh. Cost the club 20k but that was recuperated through prize money and attendance at the playoffs.  No real life but was interesting 

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, glensmad said:

 

To be fair, I didn't get that impression when I read the article a short time ago. It's certainly something worth discussing, perhaps on a thread of its own. But whether the clubs will vote for it is another thing.

From the experience in the East Region when we voted on re-organisation 4 years ago, as long as clubs are very clear on how it would work, their concerns are answered, and see it as a positive move, then they'll vote for it.

[Sunrise]

7 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Is the reporter a junior supporter? The article is condescending in tone at best. That's before even considering the content of the proposal.

Calum Corral is as big a junior fan as ye can get in the local press!

[tinto]

Those "people who turn up for a couple of hours on a Saturday then sit at keyboards spouting theories" are those dwindling members of the paying public that still care less. When they cease to do so, you'll have even more cause to worry, when it's too late.

There are equally plenty on here that know only too well what the costs are for Juniors having been on/are on club boards (in some cases quitting in despair) & watched as the available cash shrinks year after year, yet all attempts at changes within clubs - let alone the grade - are met with intransigence: except for certain clubs who appear to not merely have pulled away from the rest as a result, but have vanished over the horizon - naming no Auchinleck Talbots in particular who silenced the old lie "this is Junior football, it can't be done without a sugar daddy".

A lot of those on this thread you are dismissing are the very ones who cursed the Lowlands to damnation & scoffed "the gimmick" wouldn't last two seasons, only to see that it's now looking ever increasingly likely that the renegade East Kilbride club set up because certain individuals couldn't get their own way at East Kilbride Thistle are heading towards promotion to the SPFL. If ever there was a metaphor that non-league Scottish football's "will never happen" is happening, this was it.

Junior clubs can't kid themselves any longer that a set up run on Micawber Principles is good enough any more. Fans, sponsors and players expectations from a club have become greater - & if they're not met, they'll take themselves elsewhere. Appeals in times of crisis all too often falls on deaf ears in a era many don't know or care who are their next door neighbours, let alone have a flicker of sentiment towards "the town's/village's club". Times have changed, and Junior clubs need to change with them - or die.

I think this is a very good post and sums up my view entirely.

For many years I got involved with my favourite Junior team from afar. Seeing the way 'Junior Fitba' operated around 15 years ago surprised me and I made countless suggestions to the various forums. I tried going to the clubs agm and giving them all the help that could possibly be given to them.  In the end I gave up; I tried my best but there we are.

The club people involved are good but collectively as an association there is no vision and no drive to improve.

I live in England and as far as I can see Junior Football has not progressed one little bit. I got involved with a Step 6 Non League village side called Hartley Wintney http://www.hartleyfc.com/index.php    I started watching them in 2004 and the progress they have made is everything that I dreamed my favourite Junior club would have made. They are a superb set up and I enjoy watching them. They are the highest goal scorers in the Pyramid from the Premiership down 9 levels and have already scored over 100 goals this season and 21 points clear. They have the basics right; despite being a village club and put a big emphasis on giving a good match day experience.

Obviously I still have great affection for the team I have supported in Scotland and hope they do well. Scottish Junior Football should be scrapped and merged into the Pyramid.

 

 

[garrellburn]

I live in England and as far as I can see Junior Football has not progressed one little bit. I got involved with a Step 6 Non League village side called Hartley Wintney http://www.hartleyfc.com/index.php    I started watching them in 2004 and the progress they have made is everything that I dreamed my favourite Junior club would have made. They are a superb set up and I enjoy watching them. They are the highest goal scorers in the Pyramid from the Premiership down 9 levels and have already scored over 100 goals this season and 21 points clear. They have the basics right; despite being a village club and put a big emphasis on giving a good match day experience.

Obviously I still have great affection for the team I have supported in Scotland and hope they do well. Scottish Junior Football should be scrapped and merged into the Pyramid.

 

Interesting post. Just a few questions to get a better comparison with junior clubs up here.

What is the population of your "village". Average home gate, Admission costs.Are players paid anything more than expenses.

Ground capacity, seated/standing. Floodlights? Club turnover p/a (approx, if you can tell us).

Nearest league club, do many locals travel to support them?

Thanks in advance.

[Hillonearth]

5 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

Interesting post. Just a few questions to get a better comparison with junior clubs up here.

What is the population of your "village". Average home gate, Admission costs.Are players paid anything more than expenses.

Ground capacity, seated/standing. Floodlights? Club turnover p/a (approx, if you can tell us).

Nearest league club, do many locals travel to support them?

Thanks in advance.

I've always thought comparing the English pyramid to any potential Scottish one is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The English one "goes national" at the Conference, where most sides get crowds of several thousand and play at a standard which would probably see them challenge at Championship level up here. If you dumped the Scottish system into the English one, I wouldn't be shocked if the lowest sides in the SPFL found their level in the likes of the Southern or Isthmian Leagues, which are a full two steps down from the Conference and play regionally.

To put it into perspective, I worked in Sussex for a while and used to watch Hastings Town who were the local team (in a town of 90,000 which would be the fifth or sixth biggest town in Scotland) and were probably on a level with most sides in SPFL 2 - they've never had a sniff of anything higher than the top division in the Isthmian. Most Scottish non-league sides apart from a handful of the most elite almost certainly wouldn't do great even at that level - all but a few would be a better fit in the likes of the Combined Counties League.

The three region model suggested would be a great starting point to explore further; the current two region one where one "half" holds probably 80-85%+ of the country's population just isn't an attractive one.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Clubs in England seem to have more access to funding as well. Not sure where it all comes from. Some proper distribution from further up maybe? That won't happen here.

[Burnie_man]

12 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Clubs in England seem to have more access to funding as well. Not sure where it all comes from. Some proper distribution from further up maybe? That won't happen here.

The Scottish Football Partnership helped with funding of Easthouses Lily new stand. Not sure what criteria had to be met, but there's funding.

Hartley Witney has a population of 5,000.

http://hoppingaroundhampshire.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/12-hartley-wintney-fc.html

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The Scottish Football Partnership helped with funding of Easthouses Lily new stand. Not sure what criteria had to be met, but there's funding.

Hartley Witney has a population of 5,000.

http://hoppingaroundhampshire.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/12-hartley-wintney-fc.html

 

 

I go to loads of grounds in England, down to levels 9 &10. The difference in standard of ground from here is quite stark. Did Easthouses get the cash before they jumped ship? Anyway, there is certainly more money about down there. I'm not saying we shouldn't look at our structure because of that though.

[Burnie_man]

I lived in Berkshire for over 10 years so seen my fair share of Wessex League and Hellenic League and such like so I'm aware of facilities on offer. Every single club has floodlights for starters, and almost all clubs have a seated stand down to a fairly low level, almost all issued informative programmes, and had a tea room/bar open on matchday.

I think the difference was, in my day, players didn't get paid large sums of money and there were no big transfer fees either, and the level was comparable to most mid ranged Junior clubs. That was 20 years ago though so things may have moved on, but no club I ever encountered played in a dump, good facilities appeared one of the main priorities.  How that was funded I don't know, but large sums of money weren't disappearing out of the door in the pocket of players, at the expense of facilities.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

I lived in Berkshire for over 10 years so seen my fair share of Wessex League and Hellenic League and such like so I'm aware of facilities on offer. Every single club has floodlights for starters, and almost all clubs have a seated stand down to a fairly low level, almost all issued informative programmes, and had a tea room/bar open on matchday.

I think the difference was, in my day, players didn't get paid large sums of money and there were no big transfer fees either, and the level was comparable to most mid ranged Junior clubs. That was 20 years ago though so things may have moved on, but no club I ever encountered played in a dump, good facilities appeared one of the main priorities.  How that was funded I don't know, but large sums of money weren't disappearing out of the door in the pocket of players, at the expense of facilities.

They also might be more professional commercially, I suppose. There's more money sloshing about Berkshire than Newmains to aim for as well.