Old Firm Colts in L2

[theboke]

3 hours ago, craigkillie said:

They weren't looking at those changes until the very last minute, when they realised it might be a way to push through the league reform they wanted.

I think it would be normal for those attending a meeting about the merger of two organisations, in this case the SPL and SFL, to expect there to be discussions on how they were to reach joint agreement on taking decisions for that new body. 

3 hours ago, craigkillie said:

If Ross County and St Mirren wanted to keep the current set-up, then voting for this change would not have achieved what they wanted to. It would be very unlikely that they'd get 9 people to agree to change back if 10 clubs wanted to change away from it in the first place.

There was a lot of compromising going on at the time by those taking a wider view, some of whom would have had reservations about the league structure, so I think there would have been no shortage of allies at the three-year review if the league restructure was a flop.

[Hampden Diehard]

On 21/03/2021 at 08:45, craigkillie said:

They made their decision based on the new league structure because it was a vote on the new league structure. The proposal to change the voting structure literally came during the meeting and can't possibly have been properly scrutinised.

My admittedly limited experience of such meetings is that items come up at the last  minute meaning there's little opportunity for clubs to discuss the issues properly at their respective clubs and arrive with a club consensus. You then have the delegate casting his/her vote with no club mandate. Only a cynic would suggest that this is done by the secretary of the organisation involved deliberately.

[Andy groundhopper]

We can only hope that cash strapped spfl clubs go against the Colts idea, but I'd expect any restructure would have to include a rapid way back into spfl2 for relegated clubs. They're running scared of being in the HL/LL for years, loss of fans and income possibly. Give me Brora,Kelty,Talbot etc rather than Colts any day.

[Brazilianlex]

Interesting article in the Cowden Newsletter.

I cant understand why the LL/HL shout about L2 teams protecting themselves when they have never actually sat down with them but prefer to be useful idiots to Rangers and Celtic with their Clots idea. I think most fans would be happy to see an expanded L2 with LL and HL teams but without Colts. 

Colts or B Teams—What’s the Story Some fans will have heard our chairman Donald Findlay on the radio discussing what is popularly known as the Colts proposals. There has been some remarkable arrogance on this topic displayed by the likes of Davie Provan and John Collins (qv). Their myopic views reveal how little they grasp the true issues. Despite the Highland League and Lowland League clubs seemingly having full details of the proposal SPFL L2 clubs had seen not a sausage despite being the League mooted for restructure. We needed to glean what we could from the media! It seems to involve a 16 team league (with 2 colt, 2 HL and 2 LL teams being added) which after playing 30 games splits into 4 mini-leagues of 4 – that already seems ludicrous to us. Variants of this Colt proposal have been put forward formally and informally at least 3 times in recent years and it has been rejected each time without being voted on. L1 and L2 clubs indeed were unanimously opposed to this concept at a meeting at Airdrie a couple of years back. Many Lower League clubs have fan groups pressuring their club directors to vote this down in part due to a dislike of the Old Firm. They threaten to boycott and not renew season tickets. Those promoting it seem to favour financial inducement to persuade L2 clubs to support their plan. Messaging suggests this is about developing players for the good of the national team but surely mainly benefits Rangers and Celtic. B teams also don’t bring any crowds and away games v them will likely be in almost empty grounds - like a Covid game. Lower league clubs don’t consider their purpose is to develop Old Firm youngsters and that they would reduce the status of the SPFL lower leagues as a competition. These are a few of the downsides from lower league perspectives. But why not come and sit down with L2 clubs and see what our concerns are – some group dialogue would help. Attempts at reconstruction seem generally to be driven by the interests of the parties promoting it. In reality L2 would probably like proper funding for the LL/HL in terms of prize money so you don’t drop off a cliff face if relegated. SPFL teams don’t want any regionalisation. Premier clubs maybe want to keep what they already have. Championship would probably like 2 more clubs - to protect full timers and better supported clubs from relegation. L1 may prefer 18 team championship so more of them would play bigger teams and get bigger crowds. Most clubs don’t want less games or their prize money being shared out with more clubs - home games produce revenue. LL/HL want automatic promotion. LL/HL clubs tend to favour the Colts idea because as a side effect a number of them get into the SPFL! Maybe the LL/HL might sit down and speak with the SPFL L2 clubs and find they have some common interests?

  

[Hampden Diehard]

Heard Findlay on the radio. He basically guffawed in the guy's face. It was beautiful to hear.

[RiG]

 

[RandomGuy.]

8 minutes ago, RiG said:

 

As expected, Old Firm fans retweeting/commenting are too thick to understand the joke

[Thom & Gerry]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

As expected, Old Firm fans retweeting/commenting are too thick to understand the joke

Nice one.

[theoriginalhedge]

8 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

As expected, Old Firm fans retweeting/commenting are too thick to understand the joke

Get it right up them ! 

[theoriginalhedge]

1 hour ago, Snafu said:

Although just a jest, it make perfect sense to allow the other 40 clubs to be shoehorned into the SPFL League 2 otherwise blatant unfair biased favouritism towards two other members.

So a reconstruction which allows for larger League 2 to accept colt teams would be -

Premiership 12 teams, Championship 10 teams, League 1 20 teams (to avoid 1st team v colts) , League 2 44 teams.

Seems perfectly reasonable and the fairest solution to allow colts to play in the SPFL.

On that basis,   why f**k about trying to expand  a perfectly workable  and competitive league 2 ?    Why not create an SPFL league 3 for colt teams and any lowland / highland / junior / amatuer/ ladies  team  that wishes to compete  ?  

Sounds just as feasable  / ridiculous .....(delete as appropriate ) 

Edited April 2, 2021 by theoriginalhedge

[BFTD]

Can't we just skip to the end game and allow Celtgers colts into the Premiership?

On the understanding that they're never, ever allowed to be relegated, of course.

[BFTD]

30 minutes ago, Snafu said:

There's little wrong with the current set up apart from not having proper automatic relegation for the bottom team in L2 and a playoff to stay up for the 9th placed in L2.

The idea of placing two new teams automatically without earning their crust through hard work makes a joke of the SPFL where non league clubs have to go through a process of playoffs to win promotion.

The way it should be settled is with a punch up, if both colts teams can win a mass square goes vs  first Brora Rangers or Kelty Hearts and then the Brechin City players then they will have earned their place and a little bit of respect.

Assuming square goes are off the table, I'd suggest we could use more traffic between L2 and HL/LL than just 1/2 clubs. Relegation for the bottom four, promotion for the champions, and a play-off system below that would increase mobility.

Obviously it'd make the HL/LL happier, and they'd be able to institute play-offs to prevent two or three teams running away with the league and leaving everyone else with nothing to play for. The League 2 clubs ought to be happier too, as relegation is virtually exile at the moment, whereas the champions going up and play-offs for a second promotion place would leave teams feeling like they have a decent chance of returning.

You'd need League Two to expand though, and apparently nobody's happy with the idea of the prize money being watered down with the introduction of extra clubs, which is the whole reason Celtgers have dangled an expanded League Two and extra cash to try and force their reserves into the pyramid. The obvious answer is to tell them to get fucked, and vote to change the league structure/make small adjustments to the prize money anyway.

What do you bet it would be blocked by the veto of two clubs? Thanks again for that, Aberdeen.

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, Snafu said:

I wouldn't see a problem with L2 expanded to the size of the LL as long as the teams that play in that league have earned it through either good or being pish.

If so then the relegation/promotion places and playoff should reflect this. For a ten team league settling who gets promoted/relegated should be the same numbers in those positions as the leagues above. Bottom club in L2 goes down. Winner of the HL v LL champs will have promotion in their place, loser goes into a playoff with the 9th placed L2 club plus runners up in both LL and HL.

Even if it stays as ten teams, there should be more movement between L2 and the HL/LL. But there's no way anyone with a chance of being relegated is voting for it, knowing that they need to be champions, then beat the champions of another league, to return.

You can see why. No chance that the Premiership clubs would go back to knowing that they'd need to finish first in the division below in order to get back, never mind having to beat someone else on top of that. Surely not even Rangers and Celtic, now they know what happens after liquidation.

[theoriginalhedge]

52 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Even if it stays as ten teams, there should be more movement between L2 and the HL/LL. But there's no way anyone with a chance of being relegated is voting for it, knowing that they need to be champions, then beat the champions of another league, to return.

You can see why. No chance that the Premiership clubs would go back to knowing that they'd need to finish first in the division below in order to get back, never mind having to beat someone else on top of that. Surely not even Rangers and Celtic, now they know what happens after liquidation.

I too would be happy for the relegation spot from league 2 to be introduced but as you say that throws up two sets of play offs if 9th place in league two is to be included in line with all the other SPFL leagues. 

 I just hope to hell Brechin manage to avoid that bottom spot this year and kick on back up the leagues again ........ Montrose style.  Even in this present form that trapdoor is a scary prospect for any club. 

[Andy groundhopper]

Feel sorry for the lower league Champions who then have to go through the play off lottery, win the league by 20 pts but come unstuck  over 1/2 games. Similarly finishing 20pts adrift but we'll give you another chance. Champions up automatically, 2 definitely relegated. You're bottom and crap so get down. When will the OF Colts story eventually  finish ?

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Andy groundhopper said:

When will the OF Colts story eventually  finish ?

When another one of them is liquidated.

[Left Back]

2 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Feel sorry for the lower league Champions who then have to go through the play off lottery, win the league by 20 pts but come unstuck  over 1/2 games. Similarly finishing 20pts adrift but we'll give you another chance. Champions up automatically, 2 definitely relegated. You're bottom and crap so get down. When will the OF Colts story eventually  finish ?

If you’re going to relegate 2 then surely you have to relegate 2 automatically from every tier in the country?  Can’t see that getting voted through.

[DA Baracus]

Supporters Direct did a survey and they've posted the results:

 

Survey Results

Overall, just 23.2% of Scottish fans are in favour of these proposals - with a sharp divide between the views of Old Firm fans and fans of other clubs. 88.2% of Old Firm fans are in favour, but only 11% of other fans support these proposals. Support is lowest (8%) amongst fans of the other Premiership clubs, with 11.3% in favour in the Championship, 10.4% in League One, 17.6% in League Two, and 37% support from Highland and Lowland league fans.

Of those in favour of the proposals, we asked whether promotion should be possible through the divisions. Around three quarters of these survey respondents agree that promotion should be permitted, but most feel that promotion should be limited to League One (25.1%) or the Championship (34.6%). Only 14.1% of these respondents believe that B teams should be allowed to reach the top division.

Regardless of their response to previous questions, we also asked fans whether they would watch their team play against a B team. Again, the responses from Old Firm fans were starkly different from fans of other clubs - 80.3% of Rangers and Celtic fans would watch these matches, compared with just 16.2% of other fans (a combined response of 26.3% overall).

Similarly polarised responses were received when we asked whether the introduction of B teams would result in improved player development - 88.9% of Rangers and Celtic fans believe that player development would be improved, compared with 11.2% of other fans (23.4% overall).

Edited April 5, 2021 by DA Baracus

[Benidorm]

32 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Supporters Direct did a survey and they've posted the results:

 

Survey Results

Overall, just 23.2% of Scottish fans are in favour of these proposals - with a sharp divide between the views of Old Firm fans and fans of other clubs. 88.2% of Old Firm fans are in favour, but only 11% of other fans support these proposals. Support is lowest (8%) amongst fans of the other Premiership clubs, with 11.3% in favour in the Championship, 10.4% in League One, 17.6% in League Two, and 37% support from Highland and Lowland league fans.

Of those in favour of the proposals, we asked whether promotion should be possible through the divisions. Around three quarters of these survey respondents agree that promotion should be permitted, but most feel that promotion should be limited to League One (25.1%) or the Championship (34.6%). Only 14.1% of these respondents believe that B teams should be allowed to reach the top division.

Regardless of their response to previous questions, we also asked fans whether they would watch their team play against a B team. Again, the responses from Old Firm fans were starkly different from fans of other clubs - 80.3% of Rangers and Celtic fans would watch these matches, compared with just 16.2% of other fans (a combined response of 26.3% overall).

Similarly polarised responses were received when we asked whether the introduction of B teams would result in improved player development - 88.9% of Rangers and Celtic fans believe that player development would be improved, compared with 11.2% of other fans (23.4% overall).

Aye, just like Celtic and Rangers fans have been doing the last 4/5  years at these Challenge Cup games. Littered with sub 500 crowds.

Old Firm fans really are fucking morons.

[Big Dougie]

Everyone can relax......for at least another season, it’s dead for now and will not be put to clubs to vote on.