Old Firm Colts in L2

[The Moonster]

 

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56412970

Reading that article, I'm not sure there is actually any substance here. It's another media piece to try and heap pressure on smaller clubs to accept it, hence rolling out w****r after w****r of Scottish Football to say how brilliant it is. But crucially, it states that the working group tasked with this "hope" to have a vote next month and that it needs the go ahead from the SPFL board before clubs will vote on it. It won't get past that.

[G51]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

What do you expect them to do?

Prize money can't be changed without 11 top flight clubs agreeing.

Celtic/Rangers will never disagree with each other over the distribution of money, so nothing will ever get past them.

Clubs tried to change this in 2012, to then allow fairer changes, and Aberdeen snaked the entire country by siding with Celtic.

I'd expect them to try, at least. Treat it like it's politics. Say "You can have strategic partnerships, but in exchange we want to change the voting structure/payment distribution/a percentage of European income/centralised merchandising contracts".

Cut a deal. Form a voting bloc.

Unfortunately, the clubs are run like bowling club committees that completely lack the initiative to carry this out, and the SFA/SPFL are not run any better. The only hope for change is that more clubs become fan-owned, and those fans take more of an interest in running the clubs than the moron chairmen do.

[Jacksgranda]

9 minutes ago, Jacky1990 said:

No, no, f**k no and absolutely fucking not.

[GallowayBlue]

I read this in the League 1 version of this thread.

The Sons Supporters Trust previously issued a statement of opposition to the Colt Clubs concept and it is my understanding that they soon may be planning a poll to canvass the views of their circa 400-strong membership, the results of which would be conveyed to the Dumbarton FC Board of Directors.  It would be accompanied by a reminder that whilst club Directors are club guardians at a point in time the decision they may soon be asked to make on their watch re Colt Clubs could potentially be both wrong on several counts and irrevocable for senior club football in this country.  Above all, they cannot allow themselves to become primarily focused on any financial inducements. 

[G51]

3 minutes ago, kent_don said:

it was all just a show for the fans. They don’t really have any ambitions for change.

Have they followed up on any of their original concerns. Will they follow up on any of their concerns? Not while they are sitting on top and winning trophies/getting access to cl money...

I believe that Rangers dissatisfaction with Neil Doncaster is longstanding and has been known for a while in league circles.

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, G51 said:

I'd expect them to try, at least. Treat it like it's politics. Say "You can have strategic partnerships, but in exchange we want to change the voting structure/payment distribution/a percentage of European income/centralised merchandising contracts".

Cut a deal. Form a voting bloc.

Unfortunately, the clubs are run like bowling club committees that completely lack the initiative to carry this out, and the SFA/SPFL are not run any better. The only hope for change is that more clubs become fan-owned, and those fans take more of an interest in running the clubs than the moron chairmen do.

Cut a deal? With what? With who?

The top flight brings in all the money and Celtic/Rangers will not agree to lose £2m+ each season out the kindness of their hearts. 

Getting extra prize money in exchange for Colts is fucking moronic considering how many fans you'd lose. The Challenge Cup showed that.

[G51]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

Cut a deal? With what? With who?

The top flight brings in all the money and Celtic/Rangers will not agree to lose £2m+ each season out the kindness of their hearts. 

Getting extra prize money in exchange for Colts is fucking moronic considering how many fans you'd lose. The Challenge Cup showed that.

Cut a deal with the Old Firm. For any proposal to pass, you need support from 11/12 Premiership clubs, that's going to include at least one half of the OF (and in practice, both halves).

£2m each season isn't that much money in the context of Rangers and Celtic's finances. They'd give that money up if they were getting something they wanted in return. That's probably going to be strategic partnerships since the Colts are off the table.

The SPFL is a members organisation that is run democratically. Despite this, none of the clubs have actually had the idea of treating it like it's a democracy.

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

Cut a deal with the Old Firm. For any proposal to pass, you need support from 11/12 Premiership clubs, that's going to include at least one half of the OF (and in practice, both halves).

£2m each season isn't that much money in the context of Rangers and Celtic's finances. They'd give that money up if they were getting something they wanted in return. That's probably going to be strategic partnerships since the Colts are off the table.

If they weren't bothered about losing £2m each a season they wouldn't only be offering clubs £2m spread over 5 seasons m8.

Celtic/Rangers are bullies, that's why they've spent the past year hounding clubs struggling for money with financial incentives to agree to Colts. They won't accept anything that doesn't directly benefit them without any downside.

If you think they'd give up their 11/1 voting privileges, and prize money distribution, simply so they could loan a couple of players to one club every season as part of a "strategic partnership", then you're deluded.

If you think clubs haven't tried to negotiate things with Rangers/Celtic to even things up since the SPL came into force, then you're deluded.

[oneteaminglasgow]

I’ve emailed Thistle the now, I know it’ll probably not get as far as a vote but still good to remind them that the Colts idea is shite.

I think ultimately my biggest problem is the idea that the Colts might win a division, and so take away that experience from fans who’ll get that maybe once a generation. Winning the First division was comfortably the best experience I’ve had supporting Thistle - I can’t imagine missing out on that so that youth teams watched by nobody can get ‘development opportunities’

Its all fucking dreadful though, get it to f**k.

[G51]

2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

If they weren't bothered about losing £2m each a season they wouldn't only be offering clubs £2m spread over 5 seasons m8.

Celtic/Rangers are bullies, that's why they've spent the past year hounding clubs struggling for money with financial incentives to agree to Colts. They won't accept anything that doesn't directly benefit them without any downside.

If you think they'd give up their 11/1 voting privileges, and prize money distribution, simply so they could loan a couple of players to one club every season as part of a "strategic partnership", then you're deluded.

If you think clubs haven't tried to negotiate things with Rangers/Celtic to even things up since the SPL came into force, then you're deluded.

Nowhere did I say Rangers and Celtic aren't bothered about losing £2m a season. Lets not get hysterical here.

What I said is that Rangers and Celtic could afford to lose £2m a season if they thought they were getting a good deal in return. That could take the form of strategic partnerships, it could be something else. That's for fans of other clubs to decide. If it was me, I wouldn't be looking for £2m a season, I'd be looking to change the voting structure.

Guess what? If they turn around and say "No chance" then that's fine. The idea is killed stone dead and you move on. I think L1 and L2 fans would be quite happy with that. Every time the idea gets brought up again, the clubs say "You know what the price is, it's up to you".

If clubs have tried to negotiate with the Old Firm since the SPL came into being, then they've made a fucking terrible job of it.

 

[SecretCEO]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

That's 46 games. Plus Scottish Cup. Plus League Cup. Plus Challenge Cup. Over 50 games if the League Cup continues as initially a group stage competition.

And this bottom "senior" tier. Where would this be placed? Below the Wos and Eos football leagues? Or do you mean a bottom "national" tier?

Bottom national  senior tier - you are quite right. I was thinking if it as a Conference of 16, below the Championship, below the Premiership.

38 games, I make it, since every colt team would only face every senior team once (so just 8 senior-colt games per senior Conference side, plus 30 senior-senior games within the Conference each).

Anyhow, overtaken by events it seems...

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

Voting apparently on this is happening. WTF?

Is this expected to pass? Feels like this is getting railroaded through very quietly. c***s.

1 hour ago, RiG said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56412970

Those comments from Levein and Collins are pathetic.

 

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

If it was me, I wouldn't be looking for £2m a season, I'd be looking to change the voting structure.

Guess what? If they turn around and say "No chance" then that's fine. The idea is killed stone dead and you move on.

Yes. Clubs have been doing this. It's utterly bizarre you think you've stumbled onto some ingenius tactic to give the league system more equality that absolutely nobody has ever thought of before. Arrogance of thinking that the chairmen of the 40+ clubs over the past 20 years have all just sat twiddling their thumbs delighted with the status quo when all they had to was ask Celtic/Rangers nicely is genuinely staggering.

The chairmen all literally admitted they'd been trying different methods for years to reverse the 11/1 voting structure in 2012 and Celtic/Rangers had always refused it.

Clubs got greedy when the SPL was created and handed power to the OF, since then those two have had a stranglehold it's impossible to get free of. They won't agree to anything that removes that power, they know fine well that offering a change to that structure would dramatically increase their chances of Colts being accepted but have never once added it to a proposal, how can you not understand that?

You come back and tell me how the lower leagues get rid of the 11/1 voting structure when 2 clubs are in a partnership to never vote to change it? That's why 2012 was such a big deal, and why Aberdeen should be vilified.

[Salvo Montalbano]

Genuinely email your clubs. I'm about to email Dunfermline about this. 
We NEED fan pressure to vote this down again. 

I think we have been on record multiple times saying that as a club the Pars are against the idea.

[The Moonster]

21 minutes ago, G51 said:

Guess what? If they turn around and say "No chance" then that's fine. The idea is killed stone dead and you move on.

Clubs have said no to this on at least 3 occasions, regardless of whatever bribe is being offered up, yet here we are debating the merits of the proposal once more.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

Clubs have said no to this on at least 3 occasions, regardless of whatever bribe is being offered up, yet here we are debating the merits of the proposal once more.

He's proposing lower league clubs should propose Colts to the OF to change the 11/1 voting system.

Apparently lower league clubs are all morons who have no idea what they're doing, and his flawless plan will change everything for the better.

It's a bit mad as he's a really good poster, but every OF fans seems utterly blinkered to how their clubs actually operate. They wouldn't even blink if you told them they've been sending people round, and emails round, for years trying to blackmail clubs into accepting Colts.

[Nowhereman]

2 hours ago, RiG said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56412970

Those comments from Levein and Collins are pathetic.

Just listened to it. Gives you an idea of these guys thinking when they don't think that lower league clubs should even get a vote on it, colts should simply be imposed on them. It's almost as if Scottish football is organised solely for the benefit of two teams.

[yoda]

Changing the voting structure in the Premiership in return for colt teams in League Two? Yes, that seems like a fair compromise.

[gordon9736]

18 hours ago, I Zingari said:

John Collins on Radio Scotland this evening saying that Colts sides should be placed in League 2, with lower league clubs having no say in the matter.

Is he not angling for the Director of Football job at Celtic?

[Jacksgranda]

46 minutes ago, SecretCEO said:

Bottom national  senior tier - you are quite right. I was thinking if it as a Conference of 16, below the Championship, below the Premiership.

38 games, I make it, since every colt team would only face every senior team once (so just 8 senior-colt games per senior Conference side, plus 30 senior-senior games within the Conference each).

Anyhow, overtaken by events it seems...

 

Misread your original post, thought you were advocating 16 colts teams, sorry.

(Still agin it, mind you.)

[RandomGuy.]

5 minutes ago, gordon9736 said:

Is he not angling for the Director of Football job at Celtic?

He probably talked himself out of that with his bizarre wee "folk who have never played the game don't understand football so their opinions are irrelevant" rant he went on last week.

The boy tasked with hiring their DOF has never played football before.