Old Firm Colts in L2

[Hampden Diehard]

1 hour ago, David W said:

That is just not true at all. I have been taking school teams for 11 years and only ever had one pupil pull out because of club commitments; and that was his parent's choice. We've had multiple players from multiple clubs.  And played against multiple players from clubs. I'm not even sure that teams are actually allowed to stop kids playing - I'm sure that loophole was closed at one point (albeit, they can no doubt strongly advise parents).

Happy to stand corrected if things have changed re signed players and school teams but I'm surprised.

[realmadrid]

18 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Still a decent amount of boys clubs tbf. Tho we have lost some.  BB I only ever hear about in reference to football in the past,   They are, and have been my entire life a completely Irrelevant organisation.  I’ve never met anyone who has been in it and I doubt you could field a side if you asked a million people where their nearest one was.   

There certainly is an element of ‘they only play for us’ in pro-youth,  which means if you only get 20 minutes in that weeks game that’s all your match time that week,  when you could have played the full game for both school and with your boys club.    However if your only getting 20 minutes at pro youth,  you are highly likely not going to make it and all the extra game time as a teen will have done is made you a slightly better Sunday league player.

As a BB leader in Perth I think you would find the situation is very different from town to town in Scotland with regard to members etc. 

Our football league stopped about 5 years ago ago, however one of our last players now plays in SPFL 1 and when  we meet he refers back to his start in BB football  on a Saturday and then for our boys club which was set up to provide a team for boys from that league on a Sunday

I fully agree on the number of minutes situation . We would lose players to pro youth teams and it was great for the progression of the boys team and a way to attract new players, however in the main these players would then return a few months later frustrated with the lack of game time and the issue of also being stopped playing for their school.

The reality is its an eye of a needle for most players to make it professionally , but the more game time they have the better.

[Marten]

On 14/02/2021 at 09:52, San Starko Rover said:

 

There’s a Dutch guy who posts on here who disputes this and says it’s been a terrible addition to their league. Rangers and Celtic won’t help it as they’re universally disliked and let’s be honest believing they’re doing it benefits anyone but themselves is a stretch as they’ve molded Scottish football to ensure they call the shots and keep the cash. How long until most of the Colts are foreign.

Colts in general devalue the league they’re in and turn fans off watching as they don’t want to see their club against a youth team, see the drop in turn out for Colt team games in the challenge cup. We’ve got 100+ teams in the Pyramid but the Colts want to jump that queue. Colt teams have no fans and claims that Rangers and Celtic fans will watch them are a myth (see Challenge Cup attendances for proof). They might turn out if they can win something but other than that they’ll not care.

Colts could actually ruin the league they’re in as they’re not playing for promotion once they hit their ceiling and even if they are it’s not their main aim that’s development so they might not always field their best eleven, what happens if 5/10 teams in the division end up as Colts and you end up promoting 6th place in a 10 team league. Essentially I like most fans don’t want to watch my club play against someone’s kids team to help develop players for the top teams. They’ll also want to go from Colts to B teams eventually so they can hoard as many players as possible which will limit the players available to other teams.
 

 

That Dutch guy is me.

Just to make clear what I stated previously, I'll repeat it again here. In The Netherlands, the colt teams are very much hated by fans of lower division teams. They rarely take any fans to away games and at home games they don't get high attendances. In the first season attendances were half-decent but after that the novelty factor wore off and they fell. The record low attendance in the 2nd tier was at a game between FC Twente Colts and PSV Colts with an attendance of 72. That 72 included all comps, sponsors, journalists etc., so the number of paying fans in attendance was probably in single figures. The effectiveness of these teams is much debated as few players from those teams actually ended up in their club's first team. The really big talents tend to go straight in the first team or get loaned out to a top flight team. Plenty of clubs have pulled their colts team from the pyramid since it started, there are now only 10 left even though there are 34 full-time teams. Some big clubs like Feyenoord even never bothered with a colt team in the pyramid and their youth set up is very strong.

The Dutch youth system has a very good reputation but that's due to an extensive network of coaching, training, scouting and youth partnerships going all the way down to lower non-league. Big names like Robben and Van Nistelrooy came through the youth system of a small non-league club before eventually being picked up by professional clubs. Out of the extensive Dutch youth system, the "colt team" system is arguably the least effective and most controversial part. If Scottish football is really serious about youth development, improvements should start with coaching, training etc. Even considering colt teams should only be done once all those aspects have improved massively.

Just as a clarification: in the Dutch pyramid colt teams are only allowed for the 34 full-time clubs. They can't get higher than the 2nd tier or the tier below their first team if the first team aren't top flight. They can't get into cup tournaments with first teams. Colts of non-league clubs actually do join cup tournaments and are not in the league, which sometimes results in odd situations of a first team playing against their own colts. I once played in one of such games myself when I played football (I was in the first team), it was weird...

[ahemps]

20 hours ago, parsforlife said:

However if your only getting 20 minutes at pro youth,  you are highly likely not going to make it and all the extra game time as a teen will have done is made you a slightly better Sunday league player.

I don't know how the youth setups work these days but why on earth would you limit the amount of game time a young player has??????

A fringe player at Celtic is probably still the best player at his school so playing for his school team and carrying the responsibility of the team must strengthen his character and ability which surely only improves him. It amazes me that clubs would ask kids not to play for their school or another source where they could get more game time.

It would be interesting if one pro youth club went against the grade and actively encouraged it. Would it encourage players to them and would they see a benefit?

 

[Ranaldo Bairn]

2 hours ago, realmadrid said:

As a BB leader in Perth I think you would find the situation is very different from town to town in Scotland with regard to members etc. 

Our football league stopped about 5 years ago ago, however one of our last players now plays in SPFL 1 and when  we meet he refers back to his start in BB football  on a Saturday and then for our boys club which was set up to provide a team for boys from that league on a Sunday

I fully agree on the number of minutes situation . We would lose players to pro youth teams and it was great for the progression of the boys team and a way to attract new players, however in the main these players would then return a few months later frustrated with the lack of game time and the issue of also being stopped playing for their school.

The reality is its an eye of a needle for most players to make it professionally , but the more game time they have the better.

My son's boys club lost 4 players in one stroke to a pro-youth team in the summer there. Obviously that had a big effect on his team, but it would have been interesting to see how they got on - a variety of positions, temperaments and physiques were involved. Sadly the pandemic put paid to their new beginnings after only one or two games. At least my son's club got in 10 or so games in the autumn.

54 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I don't know how the youth setups work these days but why on earth would you limit the amount of game time a young player has??????

A fringe player at Celtic is probably still the best player at his school so playing for his school team and carrying the responsibility of the team must strengthen his character and ability which surely only improves him. It amazes me that clubs would ask kids not to play for their school or another source where they could get more game time.

It would be interesting if one pro youth club went against the grade and actively encouraged it. Would it encourage players to them and would they see a benefit?

 

I presume they would say they are worried about injury or burnout. Also coaching or play contrary to how their club wishes them to develop.

[Hampden Diehard]

The Dutch experience re colts teams is much the same in Germany. Teams with home attendances of 60000 get 1% of that for their colts on a good day, unless it's a derby and the neds decide to turn up for a battle. They take no one to away games which annoys the other sides.

[ahemps]

2 hours ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

I presume they would say they are worried about injury or burnout. Also coaching or play contrary to how their club wishes them to develop.

How many youth players actually get injured though??? I played school and boys club 2 games a week until I was 16. It was rare for a player to be missing a game through injury at that age. From under 18 onwards I started to notice players missing games but it felt to me a rare event before that age.

The pro youth would still do the bulk of their coaching though so I can't see how playing in a different style for a school team sometimes would be a long term negative. Again if anything it would show them different styles which has to be a good thing as football is played in all manners of styles and tactics. I have heard commentators saying a lot of youth players now are technically really good but they are quite robotic because of the coaching styles so surely anything that opens them to a different style is a good thing. 

I take your comments and I believe that is how the pro youth teams think but I see it as a very short sighted view from them.

[Crazy Days]

Sick and tired of reading about colts joining. It has been done to death, if it had been any other than the cheeks it would have been heard once and never again

[Andy groundhopper]

Can't be convinced that the OFColts thing won't ever happen in my lifetime, let's have a few rules in place just to wind them up - all to be agreed by the OF. We guarantee : 1) 15,000 home crowds. 2) to take 200+ to away games OR be fined the entrance fee for every missing fan on both counts,to be given to the opposing side. I'm sure P&B can come up with better ideas !

[Sergeant Wilson]

23 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Can't be convinced that the OFColts thing won't ever happen in my lifetime, let's have a few rules in place just to wind them up - all to be agreed by the OF. We guarantee : 1) 15,000 home crowds. 2) to take 200+ to away games OR be fined the entrance fee for every missing fan on both counts,to be given to the opposing side. I'm sure P&B can come up with better ideas !

Aye, just don't entertain the notion.

[San Starko Rover]

Aye, just don't entertain the notion.

Anytime one of them mentions Colt teams we deduct the 3 points?

[RiG]

f**k. Off.

[Moonglum25]

7 hours ago, RiG said:

f**k. Off.
 

This is now getting tedious and beyond a joke. Offering each club 30K per season for 5 years to allow them to join. What part of f**k Off is it that they do not understand?

Perhaps all the L1 and L2 teams should club together and argue continually and offer the same deal for Brechin and Albion Rovers Colts to be allowed into the Premiership.

Seriously though at what point are the chairmen of the clubs going to unite and put closure on this crap once and for all?  Our clubs are struggling at the moment so no doubt the Bigot Bros see this as an excellent time to strike and there will be a few chairmen who fancy the cash.  I for one would not be back if this is allowed to happen. Chairmen should consider that if you have 100 season ticket holders paying £200 a season is that worth losing in the long term if they all walk away?

[Marten]

Maybe all lower league clubs should get £ 1 for every time this gets mentioned? That will amount to more than £ 30K a year and will last longer than 5 years...

[Guest The Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Moonglum25 said:

This is now getting tedious and beyond a joke. Offering each club 30K per season for 5 years to allow them to join. What part of f**k Off is it that they do not understand?

Perhaps all the L1 and L2 teams should club together and argue continually and offer the same deal for Brechin and Albion Rovers Colts to be allowed into the Premiership.

Seriously though at what point are the chairmen of the clubs going to unite and put closure on this crap once and for all?  Our clubs are struggling at the moment so no doubt the Bigot Bros see this as an excellent time to strike and there will be a few chairmen who fancy the cash.  I for one would not be back if this is allowed to happen. Chairmen should consider that if you have 100 season ticket holders paying £200 a season is that worth losing in the long term if they all walk away?

Clubs can’t stop the Colts issue being raised. 

They can only vote on a formal resolution being presented to them. 

[itzdrk]

2 hours ago, Moonglum25 said:

This is now getting tedious and beyond a joke. Offering each club 30K per season for 5 years to allow them to join. What part of f**k Off is it that they do not understand?

Perhaps all the L1 and L2 teams should club together and argue continually and offer the same deal for Brechin and Albion Rovers Colts to be allowed into the Premiership.

Seriously though at what point are the chairmen of the clubs going to unite and put closure on this crap once and for all?  Our clubs are struggling at the moment so no doubt the Bigot Bros see this as an excellent time to strike and there will be a few chairmen who fancy the cash.  I for one would not be back if this is allowed to happen. Chairmen should consider that if you have 100 season ticket holders paying £200 a season is that worth losing in the long term if they all walk away?

What happens after five years? 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 hours ago, Moonglum25 said:

This is now getting tedious and beyond a joke. Offering each club 30K per season for 5 years to allow them to join. What part of f**k Off is it that they do not understand?

Perhaps all the L1 and L2 teams should club together and argue continually and offer the same deal for Brechin and Albion Rovers Colts to be allowed into the Premiership.

Seriously though at what point are the chairmen of the clubs going to unite and put closure on this crap once and for all?  Our clubs are struggling at the moment so no doubt the Bigot Bros see this as an excellent time to strike and there will be a few chairmen who fancy the cash.  I for one would not be back if this is allowed to happen. Chairmen should consider that if you have 100 season ticket holders paying £200 a season is that worth losing in the long term if they all walk away?

@The Phoenixhas answered how it is dealt with practically just now, but what do you suggest Chairmen do to prevent it being raised again?

[edinabear]

Looking positive that this is happening now. Wil bring some much needed finance and more fans to the league. 

[Jacksgranda]

Aye, that's what will happen.

[Marten]

4 minutes ago, edinabear said:

Looking positive that this is happening now. Wil bring some much needed finance and more fans to the league. 

Big chance that it will happen sooner or later sadly, but there is nothing positive about it. And no way it will bring more fans, maybe initially, but not when the novelty wears off.