Old Firm Colts in L2

[Cowden Cowboy]

4 hours ago, prodcast said:

The 'pro' I'd be interested in is if it was part of a larger plan that enabled the Old Firm's galactcos first teams to leave Scottish football and play in some kind of cross-border or Atlantic League-type thing.

Scottish football could thrive without the OF at the top level - crowds could pour in to clubs with a sudden realistic chance of winning the league.

I think so. I take it that the issue is with the Colt Firm trying to skip the non-league, as Hibs, Berwick, Stranraer, Stirling Uni, Spartans, and maybe others have all had second teams of some kind in the league.

 

I encountered Mr Mulholland when watching youth teams playing at a park in central Alloa several years ago.

A youngster knocked the ball out the park, and I played it back in thinking there'd be a quick throw. The lad, obviously looking for a breather, booted it straight back at me. As I quickly dodged, Mr Mulholland laughed and shouted "one-two". I gave him the Alloa glare, and he sauntered off chuckling away to himself. 

So, for that reason, no colts.

Good place to watch several games simultaneously, though; there's a wee mound with a bench on it that has a decent view of all the action.

Also - who knew that Alloa had a port?

Scottish football would be more competitive without the Old Firm but the total number of spectators attending Scottish games would sizeably reduce with a likely knock on effect on Tv monies and sponsorship.  Old Firm coverage in the media would likely increase with detriment to that given to the domestic game.  
 

The secret for Colts gaining traction (or any reconstruction) is really to understand how it impacts on clubs at various levels and what they might want in a reconstruction to get enough support from each voting constituency.  Not just about up front money but about stability and security for instance - Championship thus might want 12 clubs, a better safety net whereby the HL/LL has some proper prize money funding, maybe progress to 12/12/12/12 to suspend relegation from L2 for a couple of years while teams still come up whilst moving to autopromotion/relegation, no reduction in number of home games, lower leagues don’t want splits or regionalisation, etc

Its a big job to get anything agreed but there is no point proposing anything unless you get enough clubs on board up front and understand how any change impacts in the round not just from a factional perspective 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hampden Diehard]

I'm not convinced that Scottish football would die without the Old Firm. Some leagues in Europe seem to do ok without two massive clubs dwarfing the resources of the rest. Ferencvaros have average crowds of about 8,000 and play in a league where no one has tremendous crowds  (overall average of about 3,000 in the topdivision) and they just put Celtic out of the CL.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Hampden Diehard

[G51]

The solution to developing young players is obvious, and it isn't Colt teams.

Change the rules and introduce homegrown requirements for squads in every league in the SPFL (or at the very least, the top two professional leagues where players aren't always on year to year deals).

As part of that rule, you must have an academy graduate under the age of 21 in your starting lineup. It's simple. Youngsters don't develop on loans to L1 and L2 sides, so why would they develop in Colt teams there?

It also helps to level the playing field across the leagues.

[Cowden Cowboy]

3 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

I'm not convinced that Scottish football would die without the Old Firm. Some leagues in Europe seem to do ok without two massive clubs dwarfing the resources of the rest. Ferencvaros have average crowds of about 8,000 and play in a league where no one has tremendous crowds  (overall average of about 3,000 in the topdivision) and they just put Celtic out of the CL.

I am not sure you can put Hungary forward as much of a football success story.  Scottish football wouldn’t die without the Old Firm but it’s naive to think it will herald a golden age.  Winning a competition when the biggest clubs no longer compete in it isn’t a mark of quality.  The East of Scotland Junior scene and the Scottish Junior Cup wasn’t transformed for the better when most of the bigger clubs in the East moved on.  

Edited August 29, 2020 by Cowden Cowboy

[GordonS]

14 hours ago, prodcast said:

The 'pro' I'd be interested in is if it was part of a larger plan that enabled the Old Firm's galactcos first teams to leave Scottish football and play in some kind of cross-border or Atlantic League-type thing.

 

It's 30 April 2040. In the third-tier Euro Conference League Relegation Play-Offs Celtic must defeat Real Madrid B to retain their place, while Rangers have a meaningless end-of-season mid-table game away at Leigh Sports Village against Man Utd Colts.

 

[BFTD]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

It's 30 April 2040. In the third-tier Euro Conference League Relegation Play-Offs Celtic must defeat Real Madrid B to retain their place, while Rangers have a meaningless end-of-season mid-table game away at Leigh Sports Village against Man Utd Colts.

The dream. Hell mend us for holding them back for so long.

[prodcast]

On 29/08/2020 at 12:58, BigFatTabbyDave said:

That's the big entry in their 'Pro' column too.

Aye, you're a bit off there. The long-term idea is to have a 'B' team that stays in the SPFL and continues to mop up the domestic trophies, and any corresponding monies. Thankfully, enough clubs seem to have seen through this, or have shat it in the face of opposition from their fans, that this avenue seems to be closed off for the near future.

It's gonna take bribes. Big, shiny, garish bribes. And I don't think they've got the funds to buy clubs off with anything worthwhile.

What I wrote there was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Hence the crap anecdote (I was also urinated on by a dog on that same touchline, so Alloa - not a happy place for me).

Can't find much to disagree with in what you say.

23 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Scottish football would be more competitive without the Old Firm but the total number of spectators attending Scottish games would sizeably reduce with a likely knock on effect on Tv monies and sponsorship.  Old Firm coverage in the media would likely increase with detriment to that given to the domestic game.  
 

The secret for Colts gaining traction (or any reconstruction) is really to understand how it impacts on clubs at various levels and what they might want in a reconstruction to get enough support from each voting constituency.  Not just about up front money but about stability and security for instance - Championship thus might want 12 clubs, a better safety net whereby the HL/LL has some proper prize money funding, maybe progress to 12/12/12/12 to suspend relegation from L2 for a couple of years while teams still come up whilst moving to autopromotion/relegation, no reduction in number of home games, lower leagues don’t want splits or regionalisation, etc

Its a big job to get anything agreed but there is no point proposing anything unless you get enough clubs on board up front and understand how any change impacts in the round not just from a factional perspective 

I like what you're saying on restructuring; we'll probably never find out if the first part of what you say is true.

[Hampden Diehard]

20 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

I am not sure you can put Hungary forward as much of a football success story.  Scottish football wouldn’t die without the Old Firm but it’s naive to think it will herald a golden age.  Winning a competition when the biggest clubs no longer compete in it isn’t a mark of quality.  The East of Scotland Junior scene and the Scottish Junior Cup wasn’t transformed for the better when most of the bigger clubs in the East moved on.  

It won't be a golden age but it might be better than the one horse race it is at present.

I'm not putting Hungary forward as any sort of success story; my point was more that it's doing better than us even with its top club averaging less than 10,000 at home games and an overall average for its top league halfway between our Championship and Div 1.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Hampden Diehard

[Cowden Cowboy]

43 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

It won't be a golden age but it might be better than the one horse race it is at present.

I'm not putting Hungary forward as any sort of success story; my point was more that it's doing better than us even with its top club averaging less than 10,000 at home games and an overall average for its top league halfway between our Championship and Div 1.

I am not sure you have actually proven Hungary is doing better than us based on the result of a single match 

[Andy groundhopper]

Maybe a solution s for the OF to join an Atlantic, or a Big Club Elite League - to leave their Reserve,Colts players to take their place in the SPL and see how they cope. At least you'd still get the Scottish games Inc the OF on TV with the financial benefits. Maybe it could go like the rugby union and produce 2 new teams with regional names or something daft. (Ospreys, Dragons etc)

[Hampden Diehard]

37 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

I am not sure you have actually proven Hungary is doing better than us based on the result of a single match 

I'm also not trying to prove anything. Team with f**k all resources beats team with lots of resources, that's all.  FWIW, Scotland are 50th in the FIFA rankings and Hungary are 52nd. I'd trade 50 for 52 if the Old Firm fucked off elsewhere and took their colts with them.

[Hampden Diehard]

27 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Maybe a solution s for the OF to join an Atlantic, or a Big Club Elite League - to leave their Reserve,Colts players to take their place in the SPL and see how they cope. At least you'd still get the Scottish games Inc the OF on TV with the financial benefits. Maybe it could go like the rugby union and produce 2 new teams with regional names or something daft. (Ospreys, Dragons etc)

Celgers or Rantic?

[BFTD]

42 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Maybe a solution s for the OF to join an Atlantic

Sounds good.

49 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

or a Big Club Elite League

44 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

to leave their Reserve,Colts players to take their place

No.

45 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

in the SPL

@DA Baracus

45 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

At least you'd still get the Scottish games Inc the OF on TV with the financial benefits. Maybe it could go like the rugby union and produce 2 new teams with regional names or something daft. (Ospreys, Dragons etc)

Your only problem is that nobody's going to pay money to watch the 'B' teams, so there's no money there. All for Celtgers changing their names to something idiotic, however.

Quite happy to let the Sectarian Poond disappear off to massive games against Anderlecht and FC Twente and we'll all cut our cloth accordingly. The idea that Scottish football dies without two teams is scaremongering of the highest order, and says more about terror felt by pundits at the thought of endless daytrips to New Douglas Park and the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium.

[Dundee Hibernian]

A major argument put forward in support of this horrendous scheme is that it will allow these two clubs to develop young players for the Scottish national side.

At a glance the two Glasgow sides played 2 (yesterday) and 5 (today) Scottish starters in their line ups over this weekend.

[BFTD]

25 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

A major argument put forward in support of this horrendous scheme is that it will allow these two clubs to develop young players for the Scottish national side.

At a glance the two Glasgow sides played 2 (yesterday) and 5 (today) Scottish starters in their line ups over this weekend.

Yes, I'm sure that the proponents of this idea will commit to the Colt sides only ever featuring Scottish youngsters (they won't), and never including overage players from the reserves (they won't). And will explain how kids playing uncompetitive games against League Two sides in a glorified training league will improve their skills more than just playing for a League Two club until they're good enough to merit being bought by a Premiership side (they won't).

[Andy groundhopper]

Just say that the OF eloped to a different league, how would fans want the spfl to continue ? Would it be reorganized, two divisions maybe ? I've always felt that there should be quite a few youngsters who will never make it with the big 2 - but would be brilliant for other clubs. Would fans return, knowing that they have a better chance of winning things ? 

[DA Baracus]

5 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Just say that the OF eloped to a different league, how would fans want the spfl to continue ? Would it be reorganized, two divisions maybe ? I've always felt that there should be quite a few youngsters who will never make it with the big 2 - but would be brilliant for other clubs. Would fans return, knowing that they have a better chance of winning things ? 

Why would it be reorganised?

Keep it going as is in terms of league structure. Increase promotion places across the league for a season to make up the shortfall of two clubs.

Hopefully the distribution of resources would change, along with things like the voting rights.

There have always been young players who don't make it at Celtic and Sevco (and previously Rangers) who go on to have a good career in Scotland.

[BFTD]

5 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Just say that the OF eloped to a different league, how would fans want the spfl to continue ? Would it be reorganized, two divisions maybe ? I've always felt that there should be quite a few youngsters who will never make it with the big 2 - but would be brilliant for other clubs. Would fans return, knowing that they have a better chance of winning things ? 

I don't think Celtgers in particular are stopping a return to big leagues. It's likely to not be a popular idea with any of the bigger clubs due to the double whammy of a drop in their average attendances, and the no-win situation of regularly playing wee diddy clubs that their fans expect them to hammer. You get no credit for doing so, but slaughtered if you don't. Also, as DA says, there's no obvious reason for reorganisation just because Celtgers are absent. 

It's entirely speculation, but I think more folk would turn out to see the Premiership clubs. At least half of the current roster of teams could harbour realistic ambitions of winning the title, in a good year. If the locals aren't going to turn out for that, they're already lost to the game/bigger leagues/Celtgers. And some may well come back over time once it's established that we have an actual competition; one in which the top prize isn't a couple of games against other diddy European sides.

[Marten]

On 30/08/2020 at 21:34, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Yes, I'm sure that the proponents of this idea will commit to the Colt sides only ever featuring Scottish youngsters (they won't), and never including overage players from the reserves (they won't). And will explain how kids playing uncompetitive games against League Two sides in a glorified training league will improve their skills more than just playing for a League Two club until they're good enough to merit being bought by a Premiership side (they won't).

The fact that this isn't about youth development is being made very clear that this is the ONLY "solution" they claim to have about youth development. Not a word about actual steps that can be taken to improve youth development to put it in line with countries like The Netherlands & Germany for example. Issues like youth training/coaching etc. need improving.

If the colt team proposal would be just 1 part of a package to improve youth football, it would be a bit more believable that's what it's about, but not now.

[bishopburn boy]

Every time I see this thread , it does my head in. 
 

If the lower leagues are the place to develop your players , then  either 

1 stop hoovering up any talent before ot gets a chance to develop, let the younger players find their feet and play their way up the leagues , and FAIRLY REWARD, the nurturing team when the time comes 

OR 

2 , loan your players out to the Lower league teams ( can extend this to juniors as well if appropriate ), let them get experience and guidance that way ,  put a limit on how many can be at any 1 club ( ? 3 or 4 ) and if a player is loaned to a club there is no question about eligibility , if Stranraer get either half in a cup , then a player on loan to Stranraer plays for them , none of this can’t play against the “owing” team nonsense. 
kid trains 2 nights a week with the Wee team , and does a full weeks training back at his home club ( ok make it 3 or 4 days ) surely Rangtic or Celgers can manage a fitness training programme that accomplishes that 

Then you get to support the Lower  leagues and grow your players 

end of 

Edited September 3, 2020 by bishopburn boy
Why not , eh