Old Firm Colts in L2

[peternapper]

16 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

It is not arrogance it is confidence,Celtic have only lost 2 games in 80,every fan wants their team to do well, i make no apology for enjoy celtic's domestic dominance.
I go to games wanting my team to win not expecting my team to win there is a difference,you can't take anything for granted.
Every club has their place in the Scottish game and every club has it's own story.
Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic giving 10's of thousands to charity every year.
I grew up in the east end of Glasgow so Celtic is my local team so don't pretend you know me by generalising the Celtic support where they're many different walks of life.

IGNORE

[A Believer]

So is the potential for any rational conversation debating if u-20's playing in SPFL2 is better (for SPFL2 clubs) than the current Dev League and loan system, for player progression, been supplanted by coma-inducing Old Firm crap.

 

[DiegoDiego]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic giving 10's of thousands to charity every year.

Let's not kid ourselves on here. Celtic (turnover ~£90m) giving "tens of thousands to charity a year" is the equivalent of me sticking a fiver in a tin every six months when folk come round the pub asking for donations.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, A Believer said:

So is the potential for any rational conversation debating if u-20's playing in SPFL2 is better (for SPFL2 clubs) than the current Dev League and loan system, for player progression, been supplanted by coma-inducing Old Firm crap.

 

I fail to see how anyone can have a rational conversation about a proposal which is completely irrational.

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic 

[BrigtonClyde]

2 hours ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

Yeah, or Jim McLean leading his team down to Rugby Park hoping for a clean sheet and a point. That said, it was a very different world then and the blend of tactical genius and downright bullying / intimidation of players that both Fergie and McLean (and Brian Clough down south) had, just doesn't work with the modern player. The last echo of Jim McLean in club football was Paul Hegarty and John Holt at Montrose and whilst it worked for a short while, and kept us up in the most important game in our history, it really didn't in the long term.

The issue we haven't tackled is the abject failure in coaching education, both in terms of the volume of decent coaches produced and the standards to which they aspire.

Dismantling or re-gearing the Largs mafia is a major piece in the puzzle of getting the national team back to some level of occasionally-qualifying respectability. A lot of vested interests to be faed down there, however, and there's obviously no political will to do that at present.

Ahhh, the old Fergie and McLean bullied their way to success.  It's a simplistic take on what they did and not shared by the players who emerged from their time under the two.

Yes, they were tough task masters and disciplinarians, so was Stein, but it takes a lot more than that to achieve what they did, something acknowledged by these players.  They gained respect because they also knew what they were doing and brought success.  Clough was an entirely different character, but all three shared a similarity that it was their assistants and coaches who took most of the training while they dealt with the tactics and man management.  

The idea their approach wouldnt work on the modern player is unfounded.  They deliberately focused on bringing through youth because they knew they could get them into good habits early, teach them an approach.  They'd balance the team with a few seasoned pro's to help bring them on with the same kind of attitude.  Harper hated Fergie because Harper didnt have that mindset.  Fergie's best team at Man Utd came after he cleared out the old mentality, developed young players and was very selective with the experience he brought in.  A player can either handle it or he can't, which means he'll either be a winner or he won't.

That said, couldnt agree more with what you're saying about coaching education and the Largs set up.  A badge from there doesn't mean you're good, it means you passed the course they set up.  They've delivered next to nothing for decades but as you're saying, too many vested interests.  There again, it's ultimately down to the clubs to get their own house in order and stop blaming everyone and everything else for their own failures.  

 

[Loonytoons]

Presumably the Clyde statement is genuinely from the club so well done to them for making their position clear. The fact that clubs were never officially approached about the whole sorry affair sums up the arrogance of the clubs pushing it. As mentioned the situation needs to be kept an eye on as the idea was never going to achieve what they said it was supposed to so there must another reason behind it. 

As you say, the statement is pretty damning in the way this was handled by the powers-that-be, leaving it to Sevco and the OF to gauge the response.

Basically trying to force it through without involving the other leagues and teams that would have potentially been directly affected by it.

Shameful.

[Fred]

2 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

It is not arrogance it is confidence,Celtic have only lost 2 games in 80,every fan wants their team to do well, i make no apology for enjoy celtic's domestic dominance.
I go to games wanting my team to win not expecting my team to win there is a difference,you can't take anything for granted.
Every club has their place in the Scottish game and every club has it's own story.
Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic giving 10's of thousands to charity every year.
I grew up in the east end of Glasgow so Celtic is my local team so don't pretend you know me by generalising the Celtic support where they're many different walks of life.

Are they paying the minimum wage yet to their employees..?

[wastecoatwilly]

7 minutes ago, Fred said:

Are they paying the minimum wage yet to their employees..?

Celtic are paying the living wage to employees above the minimum.

Edited February 14, 2018 by wastecoatwilly

[HibeeJibee]

Relieved if reports of it being torpedoed are accurate.

However, you suspect diligence will still be needed as long as 'B' teams remain in Challenge Cup - and who's to say OF won't try again, or at a different level.

Btw it's worth recalling that the broader idea has been getting taken forward by SPFL, not just OF: last season Doncaster made positives noises and called for "open minds" citing the Challenge Cup (despite the dire results and attendances!); in the closed season [9th June 2017] they announced a consultation with clubs on it; and there was definitely an SPFL blue-print produced related to it, that is not in question, as it came into the public domain courtesy Supporters Direct publishing it as part of their fan survey (result of which was overwhelmingly against).


EDIT: Here is the SD page [18th June 2017] summarising the points made in that blue-print:

http://www.scottishsupporters.net/2966-2/



Here are the results of the survey (3 in 4 against: despite Q3 arguably being "leading"):

http://www.scottishsupporters.net/results-of-supporter-led-consultation-on-colt-team-proposals/

Edited February 14, 2018 by HibeeJibee

[GordonD]

2 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I grew up

Debatable.

[Fred]

22 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Celtic are paying the living wage to employees above the minimum.

Took them a while though...

[Bazil85]

3 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

It is not arrogance it is confidence,Celtic have only lost 2 games in 80,every fan wants their team to do well, i make no apology for enjoy celtic's domestic dominance.
I go to games wanting my team to win not expecting my team to win there is a difference,you can't take anything for granted.
Every club has their place in the Scottish game and every club has it's own story.
Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic giving 10's of thousands to charity every year.
I grew up in the east end of Glasgow so Celtic is my local team so don't pretend you know me by generalising the Celtic support where they're many different walks of life.

Oh aye, those first four year or so in the 19th century were so difficult, very humble compared to other clubs... Celtic are a perfect example of a corporate club with no identity left that matters. Some fans hold onto the Irish/ Catholic/ Bigoted routes that are a mirror image of their blue brothers, nothing but pointless in the modern day. For the most part though they are completely business orientated and faceless. Don't even have the local community/ city affiliation other clubs have with fans turning their backs on local clubs, jumping on supporters buses from far and wide.

Couldn't think of anything worse in football terms than sitting in a crowd of 50/60k strangers from Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Hamilton etc knowing that these glory hunters are paying for my clubs trophies against teams with players on 1/20th the wages. Not saying it's just Celtic but them and Rangers are probably the two worst examples in World football of fans turning their backs on local teams. I'm also not saying every single St Mirren fan is from Paisley but at the level it happens with Rangers and Celtic, it just makes the teams so hollow IMO. 

Glory is gone, there is no glory in winning a league with close to treble the budget of your nearest rival. But as long as you enjoy beating teams like Hamilton and Ross County and lifting  several trophies a year, more power to you. Lets run over the small community clubs in Level 2, take away their competition to try and generate even more £££ for the ugly sisters.

Is there possibly a small part of you jealous that these teams have competition when your team does not? 

[MWGC]

18 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

Oh aye, those first four year or so in the 19th century were so difficult, very humble compared to other clubs... Celtic are a perfect example of a corporate club with no identity left that matters. Some fans hold onto the Irish/ Catholic/ Bigoted routes that are a mirror image of their blue brothers, nothing but pointless in the modern day. For the most part though they are completely business orientated and faceless. Don't even have the local community/ city affiliation other clubs have with fans turning their backs on local clubs, jumping on supporters buses from far and wide.

Couldn't think of anything worse in football terms than sitting in a crowd of 50/60k strangers from Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Hamilton etc knowing that these glory hunters are paying for my clubs trophies against teams with players on 1/20th the wages. Not saying it's just Celtic but them and Rangers are probably the two worst examples in World football of fans turning their backs on local teams. I'm also not saying every single St Mirren fan is from Paisley but at the level it happens with Rangers and Celtic, it just makes the teams so hollow IMO. 

Glory is gone, there is no glory in winning a league with close to treble the budget of your nearest rival. But as long as you enjoy beating teams like Hamilton and Ross County and lifting  several trophies a year, more power to you. Lets run over the small community clubs in Level 2, take away their competition to try and generate even more £££ for the ugly sisters.

Is there possibly a small part of you jealous that these teams have competition when your team does not? 

Outstanding response please take a bow

[Loonytoons]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

 

Got to love the brass neck of the way they worded that question. 

Where are the examples of nations that have colt/B teams that are not successful at international level?

[Ivo den Bieman]

3 hours ago, BrigtonClyde said:

Ahhh, the old Fergie and McLean bullied their way to success.  It's a simplistic take on what they did and not shared by the players who emerged from their time under the two.

Yes, they were tough task masters and disciplinarians, so was Stein, but it takes a lot more than that to achieve what they did, something acknowledged by these players.  They gained respect because they also knew what they were doing and brought success.  Clough was an entirely different character, but all three shared a similarity that it was their assistants and coaches who took most of the training while they dealt with the tactics and man management.  

The idea their approach wouldnt work on the modern player is unfounded.  They deliberately focused on bringing through youth because they knew they could get them into good habits early, teach them an approach.  They'd balance the team with a few seasoned pro's to help bring them on with the same kind of attitude.  Harper hated Fergie because Harper didnt have that mindset.  Fergie's best team at Man Utd came after he cleared out the old mentality, developed young players and was very selective with the experience he brought in.  A player can either handle it or he can't, which means he'll either be a winner or he won't

 

 

(straight from the horse's mouth...from Paul Sturrock and Hamish McAlpine).

I think you pick up that bit of my post a bit wrong, I know there was so much more to Jim McL and Fergie than just shouting and bawling, the point I was trying to make was the "discipline" seen as acceptable in the 80s, and now, are very different things.

The first game Montrose had under Hegarty and Holt was a sorry, shambolic 0-4 defeat. An Elgin official told us that at half time all that could be heard from our dressing room was high-decibel shouting from H&H. Holt in particular was puce with rage after about ten minutes and seemed to be the bad cop to Hegarty's good cop.

Pure Jim McLean- not that following that performance it was unjustified. However, asking a Mo player of the time what they were like to work with, all I got was a grimace and the single phrase "old school". For better or for worse times have changed. The players had had enough of it by the time they left.

I agree completely on the broader point though- both McLean and Ferguson were terrifying characters but, away from the dressing room and training pitch, really looked out for the players and their families and both were actually very kind and humane people, who couldn't do enough for people associated with the club. Just the desire to win and for perfection on the football park led them to be quite difficult to work with, for some.

 

 

[DiegoDiego]

1 hour ago, Bazil85 said:

Couldn't think of anything worse in football terms than sitting in a crowd of 50/60k strangers from Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Hamilton etc knowing that these glory hunters are paying for my clubs trophies against teams with players on 1/20th the wages. Not saying it's just Celtic but them and Rangers are probably the two worst examples in World football of fans turning their backs on local teams. I'm also not saying every single St Mirren fan is from Paisley but at the level it happens with Rangers and Celtic, it just makes the teams so hollow IMO. 

I hate seeing folk who grew up in Falkirk or Perth support one of the Old Firm, but if you think they're probably the two worst examples in world football then you need to see a bit more of the world.

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, Loonytoons said:

Got to love the brass neck of the way they worded that question. 

Where are the examples of nations that have colt/B teams that are not successful at international level?

Indeed, it got 76% or whatever despite being leading.

'Do you think B teams should continue to be barred from the league pyramid as in England and Italy?' may well have elicited stronger response, too.

Edited February 14, 2018 by HibeeJibee

[Doonhamer doon south]

6 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

It is not arrogance it is confidence,Celtic have only lost 2 games in 80,every fan wants their team to do well, i make no apology for enjoy celtic's domestic dominance.
I go to games wanting my team to win not expecting my team to win there is a difference,you can't take anything for granted.
Every club has their place in the Scottish game and every club has it's own story.
Celtic came from humble beginnings and that has never been lost to Celtic giving 10's of thousands to charity every year.
I grew up in the east end of Glasgow so Celtic is my local team so don't pretend you know me by generalising the Celtic support where they're many different walks of life.

This is probably one of your better posts on this thread. I have no problem with you supporting Celtic and if that's your local team great. The other lads on here make great points though. In Dumfries, when I come up for a game, I see so many people on match day cutting about in OF tops or EPL team tops. Its depressing in a way because Queens could really do with that support that we essentially bleed to the likes of those bigger clubs. If the Scottish population adjusted to a support your local team stance then the balance of power and wealth would change and for the better. That's not going to happen though. Many clubs are fighting hard domestically to stay full time, to stay financially solid, to stay competitive in their league which is something you and other old firm fans have not experienced or know. Celtic has a different battle and that's being competitive in Europe for me. 

[Doonhamer doon south]

3 hours ago, Bazil85 said:

Oh aye, those first four year or so in the 19th century were so difficult, very humble compared to other clubs... Celtic are a perfect example of a corporate club with no identity left that matters. Some fans hold onto the Irish/ Catholic/ Bigoted routes that are a mirror image of their blue brothers, nothing but pointless in the modern day. For the most part though they are completely business orientated and faceless. Don't even have the local community/ city affiliation other clubs have with fans turning their backs on local clubs, jumping on supporters buses from far and wide.

Couldn't think of anything worse in football terms than sitting in a crowd of 50/60k strangers from Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Hamilton etc knowing that these glory hunters are paying for my clubs trophies against teams with players on 1/20th the wages. Not saying it's just Celtic but them and Rangers are probably the two worst examples in World football of fans turning their backs on local teams. I'm also not saying every single St Mirren fan is from Paisley but at the level it happens with Rangers and Celtic, it just makes the teams so hollow IMO. 

Glory is gone, there is no glory in winning a league with close to treble the budget of your nearest rival. But as long as you enjoy beating teams like Hamilton and Ross County and lifting  several trophies a year, more power to you. Lets run over the small community clubs in Level 2, take away their competition to try and generate even more £££ for the ugly sisters.

Is there possibly a small part of you jealous that these teams have competition when your team does not? 

The competition in the premier league is for the euro places and who finishes bottom. The other Scottish leagues are far more cut throat and competitive for me. The last few season in the championship I thought has been brilliant. 

very good post.