Old Firm Colts in L2

[Clyde01]

If your club was in survival mode and at the bottom of League 2 with a fanbase of 250 to 300 coming to your games each home game  whilst no longer having the luxury of owning your ground I am sure you would have a different viewpoint. 
Believe it or not the prospect of 15k more each year can lessen the pressures for clubs like ours. 

Less home games against proper teams, 6 dead rubbers against boys teams where you will barely get a 3 figure crowd, still having to pay stewarding and match costs for those games, general anger and malaise of fan base leading to lost fans and lower season ticket sales.

Worth a £15K cheque?

[ShiPi]

It is obvious that for talented young players to reach their full potential, they must get first team experience. It is about building confidence, playing at the cutting edge where results matter, dealing with highs and lows, learning from and being guided by senior players, being out of their comfort zone, developing as a person and coping with pressure.

In the absence of a major cultural change from the boardroom and fans where clubs would be able to state that one measure of their success will be the number of players developed, even if it leads to relegation. Therefore there needs to be artificial mechanisms put in place to make it happen.

There are options, these need to be professionally researched, possibly by an outside body. Examples of options could be:

Increase the number of teams in the leagues, perhaps leading to fewer leagues with more clubs. When the Premier League was originally cut down, it was because of too many “meaningless games”. Perhaps this lack of meaningless games leads to managers being unable to blood new talent. With an extended full time top division of sixteen teams with two part time divisions of sixteen on a geographical split with play offs for promotion and relegation. Promotion to the top division only if the club goes to full time. This would allow six more teams to join e.g. “B” teams.

A paired club loan partnership or draft where clubs are partnered for a season e.g. the Premier champions are paired with the team finishing lowest in the lowest tier or the team coming in to the league set up. Second in the Premier league being paired with the second lowest and so on. The premier club would loan five players to the partner club at the start of the season. This would reviewed at the end of December and the same five players could stay or they could be replaced by other loanees. The players could travel together, train full time with parent club, train one night with the receiving club, play in the receiving club games, play in development games if appropriate, play in ad hoc friendlies with parent club and the parent club could also assess all five players at the same time, if all five are performing well enough to be selected. It is important that the receiving club does not incur any financial burden.

A revamped competitive reserve league with a Saturday fixture.

The current loan system extended by more full time players going out on loan and for loans to be more flexible. Yes, rules would need to be amended. For example allowing more movement between the parent and loan clubs, insisting that every youth player experiences a loan term, ensuring that the loan club does not suffer financially.

Restriction of players as Brexit approaches would it be possible to restrict the number of non Scots or non-assimilated Scots.

There are other options, it does not need to be a stand-alone option but could be a combination. However, something needs to change.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Albert Einstein

[Karpaty]

10 minutes ago, ShiPi said:

It is obvious that for talented young players to reach their full potential, they must get first team experience. It is about building confidence, playing at the cutting edge where results matter, dealing with highs and lows, learning from and being guided by senior players, being out of their comfort zone, developing as a person and coping with pressure.

In the absence of a major cultural change from the boardroom and fans where clubs would be able to state that one measure of their success will be the number of players developed, even if it leads to relegation. Therefore there needs to be artificial mechanisms put in place to make it happen.

There are options, these need to be professionally researched, possibly by an outside body. Examples of options could be:

Increase the number of teams in the leagues, perhaps leading to fewer leagues with more clubs. When the Premier League was originally cut down, it was because of too many “meaningless games”. Perhaps this lack of meaningless games leads to managers being unable to blood new talent. With an extended full time top division of sixteen teams with two part time divisions of sixteen on a geographical split with play offs for promotion and relegation. Promotion to the top division only if the club goes to full time. This would allow six more teams to join e.g. “B” teams.

A paired club loan partnership or draft where clubs are partnered for a season e.g. the Premier champions are paired with the team finishing lowest in the lowest tier or the team coming in to the league set up. Second in the Premier league being paired with the second lowest and so on. The premier club would loan five players to the partner club at the start of the season. This would reviewed at the end of December and the same five players could stay or they could be replaced by other loanees. The players could travel together, train full time with parent club, train one night with the receiving club, play in the receiving club games, play in development games if appropriate, play in ad hoc friendlies with parent club and the parent club could also assess all five players at the same time, if all five are performing well enough to be selected. It is important that the receiving club does not incur any financial burden.

A revamped competitive reserve league with a Saturday fixture.

The current loan system extended by more full time players going out on loan and for loans to be more flexible. Yes, rules would need to be amended. For example allowing more movement between the parent and loan clubs, insisting that every youth player experiences a loan term, ensuring that the loan club does not suffer financially.

Restriction of players as Brexit approaches would it be possible to restrict the number of non Scots or non-assimilated Scots.

There are other options, it does not need to be a stand-alone option but could be a combination. However, something needs to change.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Albert Einstein

Playing at cutting edge where results matter. Apart from when you can get promoted or relegated. 

“Brexit”  

We have had the ability (dare I say it foresight??!!) for years to impliment a rule in the top division to have at least a minimum amount of Scottish players u21/22/23 in every team in every match. Surely this experience is better than playing a boys club four tiers down. Apparently not. 

Then again it doesn’t enrich the the old firm so why should it ever be considered.

[Poet of the Macabre]

2 hours ago, Cowden316 said:

If your club was in survival mode and at the bottom of League 2 with a fanbase of 250 to 300 coming to your games each home game  whilst no longer having the luxury of owning your ground I am sure you would have a different viewpoint. 

Nope, I really wouldn't. What's the point in the club even existing if they'd just look the other way for a bit of cash? Accepting this proposal would be just confirming every lazy stereotype that OF fans/tabloids have about lower league clubs.

Where does this idea come in that it's the responsibility of the clubs to help the national team? That's come out of nowhere. It's the SFA's job to make sure we have a competitive national side and clubs shouldn't have to pay the price for their incompetence. I'm sure a lot of people, like myself, would pick club over country every day of the week. As for the idea that Celtic and Rangers want to help Scotland succeed on the international stage, it's honestly staggering that anyone could be stupid enough to believe it.

If Dunfermline were in support of this, I wouldn't spend another penny on the club. I'm not sure if that sounds hysterical or not but I'm very passionate about this and it actually angers me to see people being fooled by such utter nonsense.

Or, in the case of Sao Paulo, equating the whole situation to the folly of socialism.

[wagonwheel]

What would happen if they did come into the league and they were both getting pumped week in week out? How would that benefit anyone? A lot of the discussion has been on them finishing at the top of the division but no mention of the bottom. 

The SFA are a complete embarrassment.  The whole proposal is bollocks.

 

 

[Poet of the Macabre]

2 minutes ago, wagonwheel said:

What would happen if they did come into the league and they were both getting pumped week in week out? How would that benefit anyone? A lot of the discussion has been on them finishing at the top of the division but no mention of the bottom. 

The SFA are a complete embarrassment.  The whole proposal is bollocks

 

They couldn't get promoted or relegated. Therefore they could finish 9th and 10th with hardly any points but the side in 8th would go into the play-off.

It's insanity. Luckily P&B only seems to have a couple of loonies on board.

[SimonLichtie]

8 hours ago, Cowden316 said:

Also whether you like the old firm or not should not come into the decision making process it should purely be based on the factual information which is presented and for everyone to take a step back and look at the bigger picture whilst ensuring what is best for your club. 

That's what the majority of people are doing. We ARE looking at the factual information. All of the factual information available points to this being an absolutely ludicrous proposal. No-one has presented a single FACT backing this proposal up or showing substance to any of the many absurd claims made within it.

The proposal is not based on facts. The rejection of this proposal is based on a variety of facts.

4 hours ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

Nope, I really wouldn't. What's the point in the club even existing if they'd just look the other way for a bit of cash?

Absolutely this.

Whoring yourself out for an extra few quid is an absolute embarrassment in my opinion. 30k* from two Colt teams eh? Where does it stop?

What if I offered Cowden 10 grand to change their name to 'SimonLichtie's XI'? I mean, doing that would completely sell out their integrity but so would selling out to Colt teams to chase an extra few quid. They're struggling for cash and my 10k could help them dramatically. Would Cowden316 be happy with this change, as it made financial sense?

 

*figure actually don't mean anything as they don't take into account lost home games against proper teams, lost supporters, lost gate money/ lost sponsorship/ lost hospitality/ lost season ticket holders etc.

[Cowden Cowboy]

Nope, I really wouldn't. What's the point in the club even existing if they'd just look the other way for a bit of cash? Accepting this proposal would be just confirming every lazy stereotype that OF fans/tabloids have about lower league clubs.
Where does this idea come in that it's the responsibility of the clubs to help the national team? That's come out of nowhere. It's the SFA's job to make sure we have a competitive national side and clubs shouldn't have to pay the price for their incompetence. I'm sure a lot of people, like myself, would pick club over country every day of the week. As for the idea that Celtic and Rangers want to help Scotland succeed on the international stage, it's honestly staggering that anyone could be stupid enough to believe it.
If Dunfermline were in support of this, I wouldn't spend another penny on the club. I'm not sure if that sounds hysterical or not but I'm very passionate about this and it actually angers me to see people being fooled by such utter nonsense.
Or, in the case of Sao Paulo, equating the whole situation to the folly of socialism.

Member clubs of the SFA should indeed be supporting the broad aims of the SFA that goes with membership of the SFA

[Burnsythebinman]

Looks like some Berwick fans are in support according to their facebook page where the asked for comments.

The ony way there board will listen is if there fans tell them.

https://www.facebook.com/BerwickRangers/

 

[Bazil85]

15 hours ago, Ross. said:

I imagine the long term goal would be to have players at 16/17 getting experience at that level rather than guys who are 20/21.

Manuel Akanji has recently broken into the Swiss National side at the age of 21. He started his pro career at 16 playing for the FC Winterthur second team who were in the 4th level of the Swiss game. After a year there he moved to their first team in the second league, then onto Basel, who have punted him in the last few weeks to Dortmund.

That is the kind of development I would hope this produces over the long term. It’s also why I would only back it if it was open to all teams in a fully integrated pyramid set up.

It's open to all teams but it's also not exclusively for Scottish eligible players. Celtic and Rangers could load the team with promising young players from the four corners. I take the point on younger players but what I would say is the player you referenced (and likely vast majority of others) were not playing at Scottish League 2 level at 16-17. He was playing at a much higher level against full-time professional players. Not Part time players that train 2/3 days a week and have other jobs. 

There is no way this will develop players good enough to lead Scotland at a world cup. It only benefits Rangers and Celtic 

[haufdaft]

Looks like some Berwick fans are in support according to their facebook page where the asked for comments.
The ony way there board will listen is if there fans tell them.
https://www.facebook.com/BerwickRangers/
 

Would I be wrong in suggesting that Berwick Rangers fans won't have the interests of the Scottish national team as a priority? After all it is in England.

[Ross.]

3 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

It's open to all teams but it's also not exclusively for Scottish eligible players. Celtic and Rangers could load the team with promising young players from the four corners. I take the point on younger players but what I would say is the player you referenced (and likely vast majority of others) were not playing at Scottish League 2 level at 16-17. He was playing at a much higher level against full-time professional players. Not Part time players that train 2/3 days a week and have other jobs. 

There is no way this will develop players good enough to lead Scotland at a world cup. It only benefits Rangers and Celtic 

His first season as a pro was in the 4th level of the Swiss set up and the standard is probably top end of the juniors in Scotland, or even with League 2 at best. His second season was in the 2nd league which is hard to explain in terms of standard. The top 2/3 there would be mid to bottom end Premier League sides and the bottom 2/3 would struggle in league 1 in Scotland. He is a fairly exceptional athlete as well as a good player so is probably not a great example, but playing a season against men as opposed to in a youth side definitely brought on the physical side of his game according to the player himself.

How would it benefit Rangers and Celtic if it doesn't lead to a better standard of player being produced? If that is the case, then all it will lead to is them stockpiling players who aren't good enough which is a drain of cash for anyone.

[Only one David Marsh]

This idea needs to be resisted, it's utter madness that they have disrespected the clubs in the leagues below by sticking two fingers up at them to shove the bigot twins kiddies teams into league 2 instead of the lowest tier, if they want them playing against senior pros bring back the reserve league. 

[RandomGuy.]

28 minutes ago, Ross. said:

His first season as a pro was in the 4th level of the Swiss set up and the standard is probably top end of the juniors in Scotland, or even with League 2 at best. His second season was in the 2nd league which is hard to explain in terms of standard. The top 2/3 there would be mid to bottom end Premier League sides and the bottom 2/3 would struggle in league 1 in Scotland. He is a fairly exceptional athlete as well as a good player so is probably not a great example, but playing a season against men as opposed to in a youth side definitely brought on the physical side of his game according to the player himself.

How would it benefit Rangers and Celtic if it doesn't lead to a better standard of player being produced? If that is the case, then all it will lead to is them stockpiling players who aren't good enough which is a drain of cash for anyone.

Rangers and Celtic have a long history of holding back young players for their own game. Rocco Quinn was a regular for us who never played for Celtic, was in his early twenties, and Celtic refused to let him leave for anything less than £300k.

Im struggling to understand how those two clubs are considered to be ideal candidates in this "improve the youths" scenario. 

[Ross.]

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

Rangers and Celtic have a long history of holding back young players for their own game. Rocco Quinn was a regular for us who never played for Celtic, was in his early twenties, and Celtic refused to let him leave for anything less than £300k.

Im struggling to understand how those two clubs are considered to be ideal candidates in this "improve the youths" scenario. 

I also struggle to see how both clubs are considered ideal, for different reasons in both cases. As previously stated, I am in favour of this but only in certain conditions. If the only way it is being put forward is with those two clubs alone being given a leg up and dropped into League two then I am against the proposal.

[sjc]

14 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

The more I think and read about this, the more it reeks of the arse cheeks keeping a foothold in the SPFL prior to making a move to f**k off elsewhere.

That may be wishful thinking, but if we can get rid of them, lets make sure they haven't left any of their little parasitic offspring behind.

This is exactly what it is.

[Jan Vojáček]

Airdrieonians and Albion Rovers - Good Guys.

 

Should we vote in favour of it then Albion Rovers will be red hot favourites to become my new team.

[1320Lichtie]

This is exactly what it is.

I don’t think that’s what it is at all tbh.

Having second teams will give them many advantages but I don’t think this is in the thinking here.

The more I think about it the more it scunners me. I don’t know what I’d actually do but I wouldn’t put another penny into Scottish football. Thinking back to that league win last season is making me pretty sad, I can’t imagine winning it by default by coming 2nd or 3rd. Sad day when your club could potentially be used by the big two as sparring partners in the competitions that mean so much to you as supporters.

[Jan Vojáček]

On 24/01/2018 at 10:37, 1320Lichtie said:

 

I don’t think that’s what it is at all tbh.

Having second teams will give them many advantages but I don’t think this is in the thinking here.

The more I think about it the more it scunners me. I don’t know what I’d actually do but I wouldn’t put another penny into Scottish football. Thinking back to that league win last season is making me pretty sad, I can’t imagine winning it by default by coming 2nd or 3rd. Sad day when your club could potentially be used by the big two as sparring partners in the competitions that mean so much to you as supporters.

 

This is exactly it. It's exactly what I put in my email to the club, and it's exactly what I put on our Facebook group back in July when we were drawn against Rangers U20s.

Beating Annan to win the Third Division title in 08/09 was my favourite day in football. I flitted in and out of love with it when I was younger - mainly because we were fairly gubbins, and that's difficult to take for an eight year old! Me, my brother, my Dad, my Granda and my Papa all squeezed into the same car. Three generations of Sons fan (although my Granda does have strong feelings for a certain Glasgow team...). As an 11 year old the players were my heroes, I can still name the team off by heart (McEwan, Lennon, Boyle, Dunlop, Gordon, Clark, McStay, Forbes, McLaughlin, Carcary, Murray), looking back it's one of those moments where time seemed to stand still. I can still remember what I did in the morning before the game, the journey down (it rained just as we got beyond Lesmahagow), my Granda had his scarf out the window and I was terrified it would blow away. I remember where I stood in each half. I remember the announcer saying "Could the owner of a VW Passat..." then tailing off as we scored. I remember getting my picture taken post-match with Derek Carcary, then at the Rock with Stevie Murray and the trophy itself. I remember David McEwan signing songs about Danny Lennon.

Lets re-write it for 20 years time, when (if) I'm taking my own kids to watch us win a title. We're playing Rangers B (which they will be by this point) at Auchenhowie. There are no home fans, we win 3-1 to win the title by finishing FIFTH (behind Hearts, Hibs, Rangers and Celtic B). There are few Sons fans left, the players are wasting their time in a competitive reserve league. We get the trophy outside the Rangers training centre. A trophy. For coming fifth. Imagine being a kid and going in to school all delighted that your team have won the league (like I was back in 09) to tell the OF supporting masses that you actually finished behind their reserves.

Apologies for going all emotional there. I just love writing about that team.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Sonsteam of 08

[Burnsythebinman]

7 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

This is exactly it. It's exactly what I put in my email to the club, and it's exactly what I put on our Facebook group back in July when we were drawn against Rangers U20s.

Beating Annan to win the Third Division title in 08/09 was my favourite day in football. I flitted in and out of love with it when I was younger - mainly because we were fairly gubbins, and that's difficult to take for an eight year old! Me, my brother, my Dad, my Granda and my Papa all squeezed into the same car. Three generations of Sons fan (although my Granda does have strong feelings for a certain Glasgow team...). As an 11 year old the players were my heroes, I can still name the team off by heart (McEwan, Lennon, Boyle, Dunlop, Gordon, Clark, McStay, Forbes, McLaughlin, Carcary, Murray), looking back it's one of those moments where time seemed to stand still. I can still remember what I did in the morning before the game, the journey down (it rained just as we got beyond Lesmahagow), my Granda had his scarf out the wind and I was terrified it would blow away. I remember where I stood in each half. I remember the announcer saying "Could the owner of a VW Passat..." then tailing off as we scored. I remember getting my picture taken post-match with Derek Carcary, then at the Rock with Stevie Murray and the trophy itself. I remember David McEwan signing songs about Danny Lennon.

Lets re-write it for 20 years time, when (if) I'm taking my own kids to watch us win a title. We're playing Rangers B (which they will be by this point) at Auchenhowie. There are no home fans, we win 3-1 to win the title by finishing fourth (behind Hearts, Hibs, Rangers and Celtic B). There are few Sons fans left, the players are wasting their time in a competitive reserve league. We get the trophy outside the Rangers training centre. A trophy. For coming fourth. Imagine being a kid and going in to school all delighted that your team have won the league (like I was back in 09) to tell the OF supporting masses that you actually finished behind their reserves.

Apologies for going all emotional there. I just love writing about that team.

Must say, that was some post. couldnt put it any better.  We cant let this destroy our league. As wee and insignificant as they think we are, it is our league