Old Firm Colts in L2

[HibeeJibee]

32 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Quid pro quo means nothing to you then - my last word because becoming bored with subject now. I am sure you are right and that there would be absolutely no sweetener for lower league clubs on offer. But let us see in time.

I've never said anything of the sort. Making out someone debating with you is at one extreme because you're at the other and struggling to evidence it is a bit of a 'last refuge' though.

You have been taken to task by a number of posters, as you seemed at pains to conclude it would have to be worth lots of money - quickly getting into the realms of tens of thousands of pay-off going to every club (or every SPFL2 club) despite the 6-to-7-figure total that reaches; and talk of sponsorship and TV money which contrasted Challenge Cup experience. Unsurprising that'll get critiqued.


In historical terms - there have been the well over half-a-dozen calls for 'B' teams (usually OF/sometimes more widely), ranging from the serious to speculative, since the late 1960s. It has been floated twice since 2010 (McLeish Review and 12-12-10-10) neither getting far. It's certainly not new, anyway.

Edited December 18, 2016 by HibeeJibee

[Gordon EF]

2 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

What makes you say that on no evidence whatsoever?

Well it looks like you're getting your excuses in early - I'd call that evidence. Also, your chairman will probably go along with what's best for his big team.

[Cowden Cowboy]

Well it looks like you're getting your excuses in early - I'd call that evidence. Also, your chairman will probably go along with what's best for his big team.

I'd call that nonsense. Yes I remember how Cowden were supposed to be voting for Rangers to go into the second tier a few years back

[lichtgilphead]

I've seen the Lichties compete with the Old Firm first teams on various occasions over the last 45+ years. Usually we've lost, but the occasional draws & wins are amongst my favourite memories. Why would I want to watch us beat their under 20's?

[1320Lichtie]

I've seen the Lichties compete with the Old Firm first teams on various occasions over the last 45+ years. Usually we've lost, but the occasional draws & wins are amongst my favourite memories. Why would I want to watch us beat their under 20's?

Because we'll get some imaginary money

[TheGoon]

If there a bigger indicator that the complete and utter morons at the top of our game haven't got a fucking clue than THIS proposal I'm yet to see it. Arbroath vs Rangers U20s in front of a man and his dug on a Saturday lunchtime is less appealing than waterboarding. Why anyone in their right mind thinks a television company would pay in anything other than magic beans for the privilege to show such a contest is beyond me.

There is no money in this, for anyone. It will not develop players, it will not "save" Scottish football. It is a non-starter, or at least it should be.

[The Ginger Prince]

Add me to the 'if this goes through I'm done' list.

Absolute shambles it's even been thought of let alone discussed.

[loon]

Just drop them into the Championship. Sure everyone would be happy then.

[Fat Sally]

We already have a French youth team playing in the Lowland League in the shape of EduSport Academy.

A team of young French players, studying at UWS in Hamilton, playing their footbaIl in Annan.

Literally zero supporters.

This team could potentially replace an Arbroath, Clyde, Montrose etc in the senior league system. Just think about that possibility.

The madness has started already. If we can have a French youth team then we can have Scottish youth teams. The Colts are coming whether we like it or not.

[edinabear]

Warburton does not want the colts in the Lowland League according the Record.

 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-boss-mark-warburton-insists-9480621

If this is going to happen then for me it needs to be at the bottom of the Pyramid.

[bullyweehutch]

The day colts are in the league set up is the day I stop going to watch Scottish football

[BFTD]

20 minutes ago, edinabear said:

Warburton does not want the colts in the Lowland League according the Record.

 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-boss-mark-warburton-insists-9480621

They'll "learn nothing" in the Lowland League, but League Two will give their youngsters "the best possible chance of making it...to successful international careers"? What a bunch of horseshit.

I've just thought of the solution to this. Form a new league consisting exclusively of the cheeks and their youth teams, The winners can call themselves Champions of Scotland, and we'll just nod along while getting on with our own business. Their U20s will be playing at the "highest possible level", so no worries there. They can have a play-off against the winners of the Premiership for Champions League qualification...ah, that would be the sticking point. Never mind.

[1320Lichtie]

How many league 2 games has Warbs watched?

Only good thing about that is the fact Stranraers chairman is a naw.

#VoteNo

#NoThanks

[The Ginger Prince]

How many current Scottish internationalists and by that I mean the regulars, have Celtic & Rangers produced themselves compared to the rest?

Forrest is the only one I can think of.

Hibs & Hearts always had a decent representation (amongst other clubs) over a number of years and did we have a colts team? No. We gave the youngsters a fucking game.

Celtic could easily afford to play someone like Henderson/Christie every single week because 90% of the time they'll win and win comfortably.

The solution to youngsters in Scotland progressing isn't giving these c***s their reserves a route into the professional league, its to stop them stockpiling the youngsters and let them go away elsewhere and play.

[Jack Burton]

Rangers have some nerve demanding this considering it was only a few seasons back they were in league two. Instead of playing youngsters then they brought in the likes of Kevin Kyle.

It is completing pandering to the Old Firm and would mean league two would be finished as a proper contest.

[BinoBalls]

The collective seethe of P&B to this shambolic idea is like a warm blanket on a cold winter's day. Page after page of fans from all walks of life coming together to tell the Old Firm / SFA / media / armchair fans to get tae fùck.

The Old Firm wouldn't piss on your mouth if your teeth were on fire yet we're supposed to be their sparring partners when it suits? Their Colt teams would attract East Stirlingshire level supports, and where is the evidence this would help the national team?

I'm sure nigh on everyone on this thread wants our national team to improve. So it speaks volumes that everyone still thinks it's a bad idea, except of course that Cowdenbeath zoomer with his voodoo accountancy.

I wish Regan and Mackay would read threads like this. Danger is they only speak to each other and other OF boaby sookers in the media, and are genuinely oblivious to how insulted the rest of us are about this idea. 

If we want to improve football then how about playing in the summer when the grass grows, how about forcing players to complete a proficiency course where they need to be able to bend the ball accurately with both feet on demand 80% of the time, how about investing in one of those incredible footbotonaut (look it up on YouTube) machines that Borussia Dortmund have and making them available for youth footballers.

Na, much better letting Rangers youth play Berwick and Annan instead. That'll sort everything out. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by BinoBalls

[JakeSAFC]

If the Old Firm are allowed B teams I would like Stirling to enter a B team in the Premier League.

[Jan Vojáček]

2 hours ago, edinabear said:

Warburton does not want the colts in the Lowland League according the Record.

 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-boss-mark-warburton-insists-9480621

If this is going to happen then for me it needs to be at the bottom of the Pyramid.

I think they need to be parachuted straight into the Premiership in that case. That will give them the highest possible chance of success. In fact as well as that they should be able to play at their parent club's home ground, and the games should be included on a season ticket. That way they'll be playing against the best players in the country, infront of big crowds in games where they have to win.

If only Rangers and Celtic had Premiership teams to play them in, eh? That would solve everything

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, Fat Sally said:

We already have a French youth team playing in the Lowland League in the shape of EduSport Academy. A team of young French players, studying at UWS in Hamilton, playing their footbaIl in Annan.

Literally zero supporters. This team could potentially replace an Arbroath, Clyde, Montrose etc in the senior league system. Just think about that possibility.

The madness has started already. If we can have a French youth team then we can have Scottish youth teams. The Colts are coming whether we like it or not.

Edusport Academy do not play in the Lowland League. They play in the next tier down - the South of Scotland League. (Incidentally that's why talk of 'B' teams joining LL shouldn't be the point of discussion - it's not the bottom rung, its reached its full complement of 16 clubs and there are licensed clubs in the tier below it). They are as you say a pro academy. That is where the specific similarities end, however. It's their first-team playing in the SOSL; their U20s play in the Lowland & EOSL U20s Development League. It's not a 'B' team or Colts.

[Dunning1874]

The arguments on why this is a bad thing for clubs in League 2 and the game as a whole are utterly obvious and have been covered already, so to focus on a far less important but still significant issue here: would this actually benefit the players?

There's a whole argument to be made on the likelihood of players who haven't broken through to the first team at 19-21 ever being good enough for the national team anyway, while it also needs to be explained why lower league clubs should be expected to degrade and ruin themselves in the name of producing players for the national team in the first instance even if it could be demonstrated that it would turn these youngsters into superstars, but I digress.

The general argument is that youngsters should be given the opportunity to play at the highest possible level, as that gives the the best opportunity to develop whereas the Development League doesn't give them enough of a challenge (if that's the case I question why Rangers get pumped in it so often and finished 13th of 17 teams last season, but I'm digressing again). If you take it as a given that playing at a higher level is the best thing for a player, then presently for a youngster at a Premiership club who can't break into the first team, that means going on loan to the Championship. If we focus solely on the OF, they currently have the following development squad players on loan in the Championship:

Joe Thomson (Celtic)
Paul McMullan (Celtic)
Jamie Lindsay (Celtic)
Aidan Nesbitt (Celtic)
Scott Roberts (Rangers)
Jordan Thomson (Rangers)
Tom Walsh (Rangers)
Ryan Hardie (Rangers)

If you were to add Aberdeen to that, since the Sunday Mail mentioned them as a future possibility, there'd be another six. Now, if we had OF youth teams in the lower leagues, none of these players would be going on loan to Championship clubs. Celtic and Rangers obviously aren't going to diminish the quality of their youth team in League Two by letting the likes of Lindsay or Hardie go out on loan to Championship clubs: that would risk not winning. So you'd have the situation where the best players among their youth teams were actually being held back and not given the opportunity to play at the highest level they're capable of.

The likes of Kieran Tierney who can compete for a first team place are going to be fast-tracked straight to the first team, the players who are League Two standard or worse do get a benefit of experience of that level ahead of playing for a real club there, however the likes of Jamie Lindsay who aren't good enough for Celtic but too good for League Two get caught in a limbo where they aren't able to progress, meaning that when Celtic or Rangers release them after they get too old to play for the B team they've not got the experience at a higher level that the loan system gives them just now.

Obviously there are some cases of players benefiting from time in the lower leagues and going on to play for the national team - Andy Robertson started out with Queen's Park at League Two (though having been released by Celtic for being too small at under-15 level he'd never have made it as far as a Celtic B team in League Two), Robert Snodgrass couldn't get a game for Livingston in the First Division at 19, went on loan to Stirling in the Second Division and got his move to Leeds 18 months later - but these are few and far between. The idea that a player like Paul McMullan or Tom Walsh would be turned into a international level player by getting a formative spell in League Two is utterly ridiculous, really. It's not like Rangers and Celtic are likely to promote players based on their performances at that level either: even when Rangers were in League One they released Kane Hemmings after he scored double figures in the Championship on loan at Cowdenbeath the season prior. How likely it is they'd give someone a shot based on hitting 20 goals in League Two rather than burning £1.8M on another Joe Garner?

So, obviously a disaster for clubs at that level, makes a mockery of the league, is an even bigger insult to clubs further down and outside the pyramid than it is to those in L2, and as far as I can see is highly unlikely to develop players for national team anyway, not that that would justify the change in any case. The only beneficiaries I can see are Celtic and Rangers, who'll get even more pulling power to tempt youth players away from other clubs, and the media who'll have four more OF derbies to cover.