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Bonnyrigg Rose at home vs Hibernian


thelegendthatis

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4 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Albion Rovers apparently may see their tie moved for police or H/S reasons - real or imagined - whereas so far the only comments from Bonnyrigg have been about moving it to get a bigger crowd and accordingly make more money. If it isn't possible to play it at NDP for police or H/S reasons then obviously it will have to be moved and the question is simply where to go.

It becomes a more sensitive area if the SFA do give permission to move a tie to get a bigger crowd and make more money, because it would potentially set a precedent for the future.

Every time the OF got drawn away to a lower-league or non-league team... and also the likes of Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts and Hibs in certain parts of the country... it could be in the financial interests of the host club to move it to another venue. Berwick can accommodate about 4,000 at Shielfield but could be better off playing such a game in Edinburgh. That would change the cup's ethos - and reduce the chance of shocks - which is why it wouldn't be a decision taken lightly.

I know HibeeJibee loves a rule book, especially the parts that no one else has ever read. 

If you have a look at the strategic plan for the SFA it includes a part on improving the profitability of member clubs. This seems to be at odds to them as HJ says to "give permission to move a tie to get a bigger crowd and make more money". Maybe ok for member clubs but not junior clubs?

Tynecastle would allow a bigger crowd than New Dundas Park could handle, especially with police requirements being met. I know many neutrals (ok, Hearts season ticket holders) who intend to go along, especially if it is at Tynecastle. Not sure what team they will support on the day. :whistle

With Tynecastle you get a ground that has the facilities in place for such a game, including suitable TV camera positions. All helping to provide a better experience for the crowd, and for TV viewers live or recorded.

The benefits of moving the game is demonstrated by what Whitehill Welfare achieved 20 years ago by moving their cup tie against Celtic to Easter Road. http://www.scotsman.com/sport/it-was-all-about-a-fantastic-whitehill-welfare-team-1-1489570 Articles in the Scotsman 15 years later. This tie from 20 years ago still lives on.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/lower-leagues/the-day-whitehill-welfare-gave-mighty-celtic-a-fright-1-4013775

Or does the SFA (vice President Rod Petrie) just want to minimise the impact and the media coverage of the Bonnyrigg minnows against one of their 'big' clubs?

 

 

 

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 Never even made Tuesday's game Casey tbh as cudny get time off work but on a high like everyone else,remember the WW game back then as I'm a Celtic fan but had time back then for Whitehill as they're local and a good side at the time who I've watched since then,as for the venue for the Rose aye it's beneficial financially if it goes to Tynie and I hope it happens but it's a touchy subject with guys who follow senior fitba and totally agst juniors even being in it but it is what it is and any Rose fan will tell you they want the pay day that comes with it as it might not happen again.

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20 minutes ago, thelegendthatis said:

I know HibeeJibee loves a rule book, especially the parts that no one else has ever read. 

If you have a look at the strategic plan for the SFA it includes a part on improving the profitability of member clubs. This seems to be at odds to them as HJ says to "give permission to move a tie to get a bigger crowd and make more money". Maybe ok for member clubs but not junior clubs?

Tynecastle would allow a bigger crowd than New Dundas Park could handle, especially with police requirements being met. I know many neutrals (ok, Hearts season ticket holders) who intend to go along, especially if it is at Tynecastle. Not sure what team they will support on the day. :whistle

With Tynecastle you get a ground that has the facilities in place for such a game, including suitable TV camera positions. All helping to provide a better experience for the crowd, and for TV viewers live or recorded.

It's a fair argument in various respects. That said a bulletpoint in a strategic plan wouldn't override the cup rules. As you say, Bonnyrigg aren't an SFA member anyway, even if it did...

Everything else I've said has just been an observation of fact. No tie has been moved the last 20+ years, except on police or H/S grounds, and in 2 cases as the pitch was wrecked. If NDP can't safely host the tie then it joins the police or H/S list... If so they're at the mercy of the SFA and how rigorously they apply the "nearest ground of equivalent capacity" clause.

If it can safely host the tie then they're at the mercy of the SFA judging their request to move it anyway for a bigger crowd and more money. As that hasn't happened for decades, and would be a new precedent affecting matters in the future, obviously it's an important decision with ramifications beyond the immediate meeting of Bonnyrigg and Hibs.

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41 minutes ago, thelegendthatis said:

I know HibeeJibee loves a rule book, especially the parts that no one else has ever read. 

If you have a look at the strategic plan for the SFA it includes a part on improving the profitability of member clubs. This seems to be at odds to them as HJ says to "give permission to move a tie to get a bigger crowd and make more money". Maybe ok for member clubs but not junior clubs?

Tynecastle would allow a bigger crowd than New Dundas Park could handle, especially with police requirements being met. I know many neutrals (ok, Hearts season ticket holders) who intend to go along, especially if it is at Tynecastle. Not sure what team they will support on the day. :whistle

With Tynecastle you get a ground that has the facilities in place for such a game, including suitable TV camera positions. All helping to provide a better experience for the crowd, and for TV viewers live or recorded.

The benefits of moving the game is demonstrated by what Whitehill Welfare achieved 20 years ago by moving their cup tie against Celtic to Easter Road. http://www.scotsman.com/sport/it-was-all-about-a-fantastic-whitehill-welfare-team-1-1489570 Articles in the Scotsman 15 years later. This tie from 20 years ago still lives on.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/lower-leagues/the-day-whitehill-welfare-gave-mighty-celtic-a-fright-1-4013775

Or does the SFA (vice President Rod Petrie) just want to minimise the impact and the media coverage of the Bonnyrigg minnows against one of their 'big' clubs?

 

 

 

Why would Rod want to do that? Take the tinfoil hat of.

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19 minutes ago, wingnut said:

 As for the venue for the Rose aye it's beneficial financially if it goes to Tynie and I hope it happens but it's a touchy subject with guys who follow senior fitba and totally agst juniors even being in it but it is what it is and any Rose fan will tell you they want the pay day that comes with it as it might not happen again.

Yet again this paranoia emerges. No-one is 'against' Juniors in the cup, it's not even been mentioned on this thread. It's that moving ties on financial grounds, to my mind, sets a worrying precedent. I'd be against it if it were County moving a game to get a larger crowd. A home tie should be a home tie, unless there is some reason a game can't be played there.

As I, HJ and others have said - first option should be a club's home ground, if it meets the requirements. If not, then the tie needs to be moved to a suitable neutral ground. In the case of Bonnyrigg, I personally don't care if this is Tynecastle, Meadowbank or Ainslie Park - it is a matter for the SFA. I can understand where the Rose are coming from, but I don't think financial gain should come into the decision making at all - for any club.

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1 hour ago, thelegendthatis said:

Or does the SFA (vice President Rod Petrie) just want to minimise the impact and the media coverage of the Bonnyrigg minnows against one of their 'big' clubs?

I would've thought the 'Bonnyrigg minnows' would have a better chance at their own ground...

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Without getting into it Cycle it's a case of the Roses park imo isn't safe for that kind of crowd and I'm no gonny say different,I'd love for it could go to Dundas Park but it's just no suited for the kind of crowd who would want to be there.

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Ndp isn't suitable for a crowd of 3k+. The recent Dumbarton game with 1.5k raised various issues - queueing to get in, not enough toilets and catering.

I feel that if we had emphasised this rather than maximising cash it wouldn't be as big an issue.

What is difference between us moving to tynecastle and  albion rovers moving to a bigger venue?

 

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24 minutes ago, wingnut said:

Without getting into it Cycle it's a case of the Roses park imo isn't safe for that kind of crowd and I'm no gonny say different,I'd love for it could go to Dundas Park but it's just no suited for the kind of crowd who would want to be there.

 

6 minutes ago, db11 said:

Ndp isn't suitable for a crowd of 3k+. The recent Dumbarton game with 1.5k raised various issues - queueing to get in, not enough toilets and catering.

I feel that if we had emphasised this rather than maximising cash it wouldn't be as big an issue.

What is difference between us moving to tynecastle and  albion rovers moving to a bigger venue?

 

To be honest, I think we agree with each other. At the risk of repeating myself... should New Dundas Park be deemed suitable (however unlikely this is), then the the match should be played there.

If the SFA, after discussion with clubs, police, council etc, think that NDP isn't suitable to stage the match, then the match should be moved to an alternate venue. As I've said - I, personally, have no views about where this should be, I can see why the Rose, and many neutrals, would prefer Tynecastle, but ultimately, it is a matter for the SFA.

My issue is with the idea that clubs can move games purely to make more cash - I think this sets a worrying precedent and is something I'm uncomfortable with. Look at the chat about Dundee and Celtic playing in the States. In regards to Albion Rovers v Celtic, the decision will be on safety grounds and the suggested venues of Fir Park and the other NDP would presumably be the closest licenced grounds to the two.

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6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

 

To be honest, I think we agree with each other. At the risk of repeating myself... should New Dundas Park be deemed suitable (however unlikely this is), then the the match should be played there.

If the SFA, after discussion with clubs, police, council etc, think that NDP isn't suitable to stage the match, then the match should be moved to an alternate venue. As I've said - I, personally, have no views about where this should be, I can see why the Rose, and many neutrals, would prefer Tynecastle, but ultimately, it is a matter for the SFA.

My issue is with the idea that clubs can move games purely to make more cash - I think this sets a worrying precedent and is something I'm uncomfortable with. Look at the chat about Dundee and Celtic playing in the States. In regards to Albion Rovers v Celtic, the decision will be on safety grounds and the suggested venues of Fir Park and the other NDP would presumably be the closest licenced grounds to the two.

My point is that Albion Rovers seem to have no issue moving their game to a bigger venue. There ground holds 1250. I cant see how there can be any issue with h&s if that's their capacity.

Bonnyrigg have no capacity to work to. I would think it would be around the 3k mark but there is no capacity set for the ground.  There are various issue with ndp which would make 1.5k+ an issue.

If I was paranoid I would suggest it is because we are a junior team and Albion Rovers are senior.

Any truth that our secretary received a call from the sfa reminding him that they would decide venue? I'll bet AR didn't get similar call

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52 minutes ago, db11 said:

My point is that Albion Rovers seem to have no issue moving their game to a bigger venue. There ground holds 1250. I cant see how there can be any issue with h&s if that's their capacity.

The capacity is irrelevant - it will be the police and council who have decided that Cliftonhill isn't safe for the fixture. New Douglas Park and Fir Park would appear to be appropriate grounds to switch to.

55 minutes ago, db11 said:

Bonnyrigg have no capacity to work to. I would think it would be around the 3k mark but there is no capacity set for the ground.  There are various issue with ndp which would make 1.5k+ an issue.

If it is felt that NDP isn't suitable then the game will be moved to an appropriate neutral ground.

56 minutes ago, db11 said:

If I was paranoid I would suggest it is because we are a junior team and Albion Rovers are senior.

You're being paranoid.

57 minutes ago, db11 said:

Any truth that our secretary received a call from the sfa reminding him that they would decide venue? I'll bet AR didn't get similar call

I presume because the SFA will decide the venue? If Albion Rovers were going around saying they wanted to switch the venue to Hampden then I'm sure that the SFA would be reminding them the same.

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6 minutes ago, db11 said:

Why are Albion getting to shift game in the first place if not to increase crowd?

Because I'm fairly sure that if they weren't allowed to play Motherwell at Cliftonhill on safety grounds, then it's unlikely they'd be allowed to play Celtic at home.

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Indeed - Albion Rovers have had to move a few ties on police or H/S grounds.

Plenty of raised eyebrows but that's the official line.
 

21 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I presume because the SFA will decide the venue? If Albion Rovers were going around saying they wanted to switch the venue to Hampden then I'm sure that the SFA would be reminding them the same.

Correct.

EDIT: People may recall last season that East Kilbride wanted to play Celtic at K-Park but they were told no on safety grounds. SFA then told them to go to Hamilton, which I imagine was "nearest" although I haven't consulted a map. Only problem was that SFA hadn't bothered checking with Hamilton, and they already had a youth game - I think Motherwell was also at home which ruled-out Fir Park. EK then rather played them at their own game by pointing out that Hampden was next closest, but the SFA got out of that by the fact it had nothing like an "equivalent capacity". In the end it was played at Airdrie.

Albion Rovers have had 2 Scottish Cup ties dislocated, against Motherwell and Rangers, both to Hamilton; their game against Rangers at Livi was in the Challenge Cup.

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1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

Because I'm fairly sure that if they weren't allowed to play Motherwell at Cliftonhill on safety grounds, then it's unlikely they'd be allowed to play Celtic at home.

They are an SPFL club though, it's a whole can of worms, may as well have Berwick play St James Park if they draw Rangers or Celtic such bizarre as it is. 

Peterhead to play cup ties at Pittodrie etc..

 

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No-one let alone myself would suggest the Albion Rovers situation doesn't court controversy. See the relevant threads. Plenty fans of other clubs asking why its unsafe and why cash from the games versus Rangers and Motherwell weren't sufficient to make sufficient upgrades... though they have undertaken work including the construction of a small open terrace.

Nevertheless they and EK are the only ties to have moved in 20+ years plus Gretna v Morton (from Fir Park to Palmerston - wrecked pitch) and LTHV v Huntly (to Ainslie Park - ditto). EDIT: There was also an Albion Rovers v Livingston tie moved in 2002. I think that was because Albion Rover's floodlights failed.

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HJ / Cycle if you have seen our ground you would realise its not suitable for a 3k + crowd

We seem to be in an unusual situation of a potential crowd of many times our capacity, also through qualifying as east  junior champions our ground isn't inspected.

Getting through 5 rounds of the cup wasn't expected!!!

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