Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Funnily enough we've also benefitted from that, we've signed a few highland league (that no a regional league???) players because they couldn't deal with the travelling...

Isa. Hibee has pointed out on several occasions that regionalising the leagues would change absolutely nothing in travelling terms.

Also there are not enough clubs outwith the structure on anywhere near a par with the likes of us to go and introduce them and regionalisation. Who would we play? What junior clubs from this area are capable as a club to make a step up with facilities and fanbase. The closest one would be Linlithgow, then Bo'ness. Other than that on the east coast there's nothing. It's small grounds with unfit stadiums and no fanbases.

There's a small handful of junior/highland/lowland league clubs that would be capable. Changing the entire structure to accommodate them would be ridiculous.

Like I've said a hunner times. You've got every single club in the lower leagues between Montrose and Ayr, 150 miles, bar 6 and they're spread across the 3 leagues. The travelling thing just is not an issue for the vast majority of players, and not an issue for any fan. If a player wants to move down a level because the money isn't right or is heart isn't in it as he's more important matters outside of football good for him. They'll not be missed.

Like I said no matter what level you play at, be it east/west region juniors or Scottish League One there'll still be a fair amount of travelling involved at times due to the make up of our country. Whether it's Cumbernauld going to Girvan, Kirrie Thistle going to Haddington or Arbroath going to Elgin.

Maybe being a fan of one of the outsider clubs (Berwick, Annan, Stranraer, Peterhead and Elgin) would make me change my mind but whilst the vast majority of away days are within a 1 and a half hour drive I really couldn't care less. And if it works for those clubs and that's where they want to be then it really shows how much of a non issue it actually is.

I don't see Annan or their fans desperate to get back to the lowland and I don't see Elgin or their fans desperate to get back to the highland.

Maybe you could actually place clubs into your proposed structure so we have a better understanding of what your idea is? Because as far as I can see it's totally unworkable with the level of clubs there are in each area.
 

Well that is your opinion, I admire your passion but you can't see the wood for the trees, your back is up because part of my suggestion means that your club would, in your eyes, step down, I don't see it like that, I consider that Linlithgow and Bo'ness would be excellent rivals and bring much to the table. Also, no matter what the Jeebes says, regionalisation would save clubs money, some more than others granted, but all would save in travelling costs. If you want all non league clubs in the deal travelling is the biggest stumbling block.

[1320Lichtie]

Of course Linlithgow and Bo'ness could grow to be aye. But like I said other than that who? I've had friends who've played junior and watched them all over and believe it or not I watch Lochee a lot. There's not a single ground in the Dundee/Angus/Fife area that is fit for purpose in the senior leagues nor is there clubs with fanbases big enough. I'd say Lochee probably have the best in Dundee and they must get about 200 on a good day at £5 a head? There's just not enough clubs. Boneless/Limlithgow/Pollok/Talbot would all be good additions you would think but other than that where are these clubs that are able to step up?

I think Edinburgh city is different due to their location, same with EK, huge markets to tap into. Spartans another one id like to see come up a very well run club in a big market too.

I just don't think there's anywhere near the calibre of clubs suitable to throw into a set up like you propose.

[Burnie_man]

OK one last shot at something constructive to chew over, and I’ll leave it at that.  If the 10 current members of League Two were absorbed into a three region system with current HL & LL clubs, plus top Juniors, this is how it could initially look, with a play-off system between the three regions to decide promotion into the level above. Level above could be reformed into a Premiership of 14 clubs, and a Championship of 18 (or 2 x 16).   18 clubs each initially to accommodate existing HL/LL clubs but could be paired down to 16 in each over a couple of seasons.  Let’s not get hung up on the mechanics of it all, it’s only a rough idea to look at the concept.

 

These 54 clubs could be the sole entrants into a new Regional Cup to replace the Irn Bru Cup, whilst all clubs below this level would take part in a revamped Junior Cup.  The top 86 clubs would be automatic Scottish Cup entrants.

 

It’s not perfect, but it would be attractive to the top Junior clubs, and over time the weaker clubs in the current LL would slip down to be replaced by stronger Junior clubs.  It would give us a real Pyramid. I also don’t see a lot to be frightened of from current League Two clubs, it’s a better option than dropping into the current HL or LL  as they will be stronger in standard, less overall travel than League Two and more variety instead of playing the same clubs four times a season.

 

SPFL League Two North (or Highland League)

Forfar Athletic

Elgin City

Arbroath

Montrose

Buckie Thistle

Brora Rangers

Cove Rangers

Formartine Utd

Turriff Utd

Fraserburgh

Keith

Wick Academy

Inverurie Locos

Forres Mechanics

Clachnacuddin

Nairn County

Deveronvale

Huntly

Relegates to North Superleague, which absorbs remaining HL members, Strathspey Thistle, Rothes and Fort William. Also perhaps Junior clubs north of the Tay.

 

SPFL League Two East (or Lowland League East)

Berwick Rangers

Edinburgh City

Cowdenbeath

East Stirlingshire

Spartans

Gala Fairydean Rovers

Whitehill Welfare

Civil Service Strollers

Vale of Leithen

Hawick RA

Edinburgh Uni

Preston Ath

Selkirk

Kelty Hearts

Bonnyrigg Rose

Bo’ness United

Linlithgow Rose

Camelon Juniors

Relegates to East Superleague, East Region structure absorbs all EoSFL clubs

 

SPFL League Two West (or Lowland League West)

Clyde

Annan Athletic

Stirling Albion

East Kilbride

Dalbeattie Star

Gretna 2008

BSC Glasgow

Stirling Uni

Cumbernauld Colts

Auchinleck Talbot

Cumnock

Beith

Pollok

Arthurlie

Glenafton Athletic

Kirkintilloch Rob Roy

Kilbirnie Ladeside

Irvine Meadow

Relegates to West Superleague. West Region structure absorbs all SoSFL clubs

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Of course Linlithgow and Bo'ness could grow to be aye. But like I said other than that who? I've had friends who've played junior and watched them all over and believe it or not I watch Lochee a lot. There's not a single ground in the Dundee/Angus/Fife area that is fit for purpose in the senior leagues nor is there clubs with fanbases big enough. I'd say Lochee probably have the best in Dundee and they must get about 200 on a good day at £5 a head? There's just not enough clubs. Boneless/Limlithgow/Pollok/Talbot would all be good additions you would think but other than that where are these clubs that are able to step up?

I think Edinburgh city is different due to their location, same with EK, huge markets to tap into. Spartans another one id like to see come up a very well run club in a big market too.

I just don't think there's anywhere near the calibre of clubs suitable to throw into a set up like you propose.

The junior clubs you mention and one or two others could be healthy additions to a feeder league with your club and your contemporaries , not a step up as such, more a evening out. The rest would be placed somewhere below.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

OK one last shot at something constructive to chew over, and I’ll leave it at that.  If the 10 current members of League Two were absorbed into a three region system with current HL & LL clubs, plus top Juniors, this is how it could initially look, with a play-off system between the three regions to decide promotion into the level above. Level above could be reformed into a Premiership of 14 clubs, and a Championship of 18 (or 2 x 16). Let’s not get hung up on the mechanics of it all, it’s only a rough idea to look at the concept.  18 clubs each initially to accommodate existing HL/LL clubs but could be paired down to 16 in each over a couple of seasons.

 

These 54 clubs could be the sole entrants into a new Regional Cup to replace the Irn Bru Cup, whilst all clubs below this level would take part in a revamped Junior Cup.  The top 86 clubs would be automatic Scottish Cup entrants.

 

It’s not perfect, but it would be attractive to the top Junior clubs, and over time the weaker clubs in the current LL would slip down to be replaced by stronger Junior clubs.  It would give us a real Pyramid. I also don’t see a lot to be frightened of from current League Two clubs, it’s a better option than dropping into the current HL or LL  as they will be stronger in standard, less overall travel than League Two and more variety instead of playing the same clubs four times a season.

 

SPFL League Two North (or Highland League)

Forfar Athletic

Elgin City

Arbroath

Montrose

Buckie Thistle

Brora Rangers

Cove Rangers

Formartine Utd

Turriff Utd

Fraserburgh

Keith

Wick Academy

Inverurie Locos

Forres Mechanics

Clachnacuddin

Nairn County

Deveronvale

Huntly

Relegates to North Superleague, which absorbs remaining HL members, Strathspey Thistle, Rothes and Fort William. Also perhaps Junior clubs north of the Tay.

 

SPFL League Two East (or Lowland League East)

Berwick Rangers

Edinburgh City

Cowdenbeath

East Stirlingshire

Spartans

Gala Fairydean Rovers

Whitehill Welfare

Civil Service Strollers

Vale of Leithen

Hawick RA

Edinburgh Uni

Preston Ath

Selkirk

Kelty Hearts

Bonnyrigg Rose

Bo’ness United

Linlithgow Rose

Camelon Juniors

Relegates to East Superleague, East Region structure absorbs all EoSFL clubs

 

SPFL League Two West (or Lowland League West)

Clyde

Annan Athletic

Stirling Albion

East Kilbride

Dalbeattie Star

Gretna 2008

BSC Glasgow

Stirling Uni

Cumbernauld Colts

Auchinleck Talbot

Cumnock

Beith

Pollok

Arthurlie

Glenafton Athletic

Kirkintilloch Rob Roy

Kilbirnie Ladeside

Irvine Meadow

Relegates to West Superleague. West Region structure absorbs all SoSFL clubs

Looks good to me!

[calmac25]

OK one last shot at something constructive to chew over, and I’ll leave it at that.  If the 10 current members of League Two were absorbed into a three region system with current HL & LL clubs, plus top Juniors, this is how it could initially look, with a play-off system between the three regions to decide promotion into the level above. Level above could be reformed into a Premiership of 14 clubs, and a Championship of 18 (or 2 x 16). Let’s not get hung up on the mechanics of it all, it’s only a rough idea to look at the concept.  18 clubs each initially to accommodate existing HL/LL clubs but could be paired down to 16 in each over a couple of seasons.

 

These 54 clubs could be the sole entrants into a new Regional Cup to replace the Irn Bru Cup, whilst all clubs below this level would take part in a revamped Junior Cup.  The top 86 clubs would be automatic Scottish Cup entrants.

 

It’s not perfect, but it would be attractive to the top Junior clubs, and over time the weaker clubs in the current LL would slip down to be replaced by stronger Junior clubs.  It would give us a real Pyramid. I also don’t see a lot to be frightened of from current League Two clubs, it’s a better option than dropping into the current HL or LL  as they will be stronger in standard, less overall travel than League Two and more variety instead of playing the same clubs four times a season.

Something like that would be great but I think that promotion to national leagues should be mandatory. Especially as you would still have Stranraer, Albion Rovers and Peterhead playing nationally in that proposal.

At the moment around £0.5 million gets paid to league 2 so sharing that around as prize money would be a good incentive.

As much as the SPL was slated it was a good move to redistribute the money from finishing second into the championship to bridge the gap. It would be good if league 2 clubs had the conscience to do something similar.

The other side to this argument I had considered while watching Edinburgh city on Saturday is that it must be great being a supporter coming up into the bigger leagues and watching your team compete and go new places. So much of football in Scotland is sterile which is why I'm behind a pyramid in any format just as long as it's all encompassing and competitive

[fueradejuego]

46 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Talbot have had a comprehensive ground improvement policy and strategy for decades, it takes more than a game against Hearts to finance the improvements taken place at Beechwood over the last two decades, they always spend their money wisely. Which is why they are a good model for part time football clubs.  

How much subsidy have Talbot received from their entry into the Scottish Cup?

 

Talbot first appeared in the Scottish Cup in 2009/10 and have played in the competition on five occasions?

Prize money in the early round is roughly £2k per round as at 2014 I think, based upon Talbot's results etc, it would be safe to assume that Talbot have made in excess of £50k from prize money / subsidy (delete as appropriate) alone before you add in their gate receipts from the hordes who travel around the country supporting them.

That's a decent chunk and however you want to dress up the ground improvements, the money from the Scottish Cup will have contributed towards that.

 

I don't doubt that Talbot are a well run part time club just like countless other part time clubs around the country.

How is the youth set up at Talbot structured? Do you have age groups from the likes of U11 all the way or is the focus on older age groups such as U17 and U19?

[fueradejuego]

33 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

OK one last shot at something constructive to chew over, and I’ll leave it at that.  If the 10 current members of League Two were absorbed into a three region system with current HL & LL clubs, plus top Juniors, this is how it could initially look, with a play-off system between the three regions to decide promotion into the level above. Level above could be reformed into a Premiership of 14 clubs, and a Championship of 18 (or 2 x 16).   18 clubs each initially to accommodate existing HL/LL clubs but could be paired down to 16 in each over a couple of seasons.  Let’s not get hung up on the mechanics of it all, it’s only a rough idea to look at the concept.

 

These 54 clubs could be the sole entrants into a new Regional Cup to replace the Irn Bru Cup, whilst all clubs below this level would take part in a revamped Junior Cup.  The top 86 clubs would be automatic Scottish Cup entrants.

 

It’s not perfect, but it would be attractive to the top Junior clubs, and over time the weaker clubs in the current LL would slip down to be replaced by stronger Junior clubs.  It would give us a real Pyramid. I also don’t see a lot to be frightened of from current League Two clubs, it’s a better option than dropping into the current HL or LL  as they will be stronger in standard, less overall travel than League Two and more variety instead of playing the same clubs four times a season.

 

SPFL League Two North (or Highland League)

Forfar Athletic

Elgin City

Arbroath

Montrose

Buckie Thistle

Brora Rangers

Cove Rangers

Formartine Utd

Turriff Utd

Fraserburgh

Keith

Wick Academy

Inverurie Locos

Forres Mechanics

Clachnacuddin

Nairn County

Deveronvale

Huntly

Relegates to North Superleague, which absorbs remaining HL members, Strathspey Thistle, Rothes and Fort William. Also perhaps Junior clubs north of the Tay.

 

SPFL League Two East (or Lowland League East)

Berwick Rangers

Edinburgh City

Cowdenbeath

East Stirlingshire

Spartans

Gala Fairydean Rovers

Whitehill Welfare

Civil Service Strollers

Vale of Leithen

Hawick RA

Edinburgh Uni

Preston Ath

Selkirk

Kelty Hearts

Bonnyrigg Rose

Bo’ness United

Linlithgow Rose

Camelon Juniors

Relegates to East Superleague, East Region structure absorbs all EoSFL clubs

 

SPFL League Two West (or Lowland League West)

Clyde

Annan Athletic

Stirling Albion

East Kilbride

Dalbeattie Star

Gretna 2008

BSC Glasgow

Stirling Uni

Cumbernauld Colts

Auchinleck Talbot

Cumnock

Beith

Pollok

Arthurlie

Glenafton Athletic

Kirkintilloch Rob Roy

Kilbirnie Ladeside

Irvine Meadow

Relegates to West Superleague. West Region structure absorbs all SoSFL clubs

I don't see what the senior clubs gain from this set up but it's clear that Junior clubs gain.

The one aspect that sticks out when you run through the clubs is the disparity in terms of facilities that they offer.

Why not simply disband the SJFA and have the junior teams form feeder leagues on a regional basis below the Lowland / Highland Leagues?

Minimal change in the short term and clubs have breathing space to undertake any necessary improvements to obtain licenses etc as they move up the ranks. You could possibly merge the South and East Leagues in  with the Juniors at the same time.

[Dunning1874]

I absolutely agree that a three region split is the way forward, regardless of what tier the regional split begins at.

What that highlights though is one of the issues with moving the regions up to have less clubs playing nationally; you say that would mean less travelling overall for current League 2 clubs, but looking at that, Cowdenbeath for example would have more longer journeys then they do in a national league, with Arbroath, Montrose and Forfar also getting more than they do at the moment. You're putting clubs who are capable of sustaining playing at a national level into a regional league with one of the reasons for doing so being to save them time and money through less travelling, yet giving them more travelling.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, fueradejuego said:

How much subsidy have Talbot received from their entry into the Scottish Cup?

 

Talbot first appeared in the Scottish Cup in 2009/10 and have played in the competition on five occasions?

Prize money in the early round is roughly £2k per round as at 2014 I think, based upon Talbot's results etc, it would be safe to assume that Talbot have made in excess of £50k from prize money / subsidy (delete as appropriate) alone before you add in their gate receipts from the hordes who travel around the country supporting them.

That's a decent chunk and however you want to dress up the ground improvements, the money from the Scottish Cup will have contributed towards that.

 

I don't doubt that Talbot are a well run part time club just like countless other part time clubs around the country.

How is the youth set up at Talbot structured? Do you have age groups from the likes of U11 all the way or is the focus on older age groups such as U17 and U19?

Eh, well all I can tell you is that Talbot were awarded community club status and have all sorts of affiliations with youth football, I can from personal experience also inform you that Talbot have a sub committee who's job is to develop the ground, they are tasked with fundraising and do so outwith the football club finances. The club will be going for a club licence which involves ground facilities, youth set ups among other things. Why the third degree about Talbot? How much did they make out the Scottish run? Who knows, ask Davey Loy, good luck with that! It's all a wee bit intense if you don't mind me saying! Your post is brimming with pent up aggression, bursting with gestapo type questioning.

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Which is why they are a good model for part time football clubs who have no ambition to play at the highest level they can in a National set-up.

FTFY.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

I absolutely agree that a three region split is the way forward, regardless of what tier the regional split begins at.

What that highlights though is one of the issues with moving the regions up to have less clubs playing nationally; you say that would mean less travelling overall for current League 2 clubs, but looking at that, Cowdenbeath for example would have more longer journeys then they do in a national league, with Arbroath, Montrose and Forfar also getting more than they do at the moment. You're putting clubs who are capable of sustaining playing at a national level into a regional league with one of the reasons for doing so being to save them time and money through less travelling, yet giving them more travelling.

If that is true it is a real anomaly, but at the moment Arbroath have to travel to Annan, do they not?

[1320Lichtie]

If that is true it is a real anomaly, but at the moment Arbroath have to travel to Annan, do they not?

TWICE IN TEN MONTHS

[fueradejuego]

15 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Eh, well all I can tell you is that Talbot were awarded community club status and have all sorts of affiliations with youth football, I can from personal experience also inform you that Talbot have a sub committee who's job is to develop the ground, they are tasked with fundraising and do so outwith the football club finances. The club will be going for a club licence which involves ground facilities, youth set ups among other things. Why the third degree about Talbot? How much did they make out the Scottish run? Who knows, ask Davey Loy, good luck with that! It's all a wee bit intense if you don't mind me saying! Your post is brimming with pent up aggression, bursting with gestapo type questioning.

You stated that Talbot were a "good model for part time football clubs" and have made several assertions about Talbot and lower league football. That has made me curious and I'm keen for you to provide more detailed answers.

I appreciate that you seldom answer questions directly but I though I would try anyway.

All this subsidy sloshing around at all these clubs with no fans and yet you cannot quantify what Talbot have received or even make an estimate?

Supporters of other clubs have come on here and produced detailed breakdowns of their club accounts over a season etc but nothing from you.

You've got the best solution for Scottish football at a lower level but cannot provide any detailed information on your own club bar some bland statements.

Asking some basic questions is hardly "gestapo type questioning" but you continue with your hyperbolic claims whilst avoiding all questions if you must.

[fueradejuego]

28 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

I absolutely agree that a three region split is the way forward, regardless of what tier the regional split begins at.

What that highlights though is one of the issues with moving the regions up to have less clubs playing nationally; you say that would mean less travelling overall for current League 2 clubs, but looking at that, Cowdenbeath for example would have more longer journeys then they do in a national league, with Arbroath, Montrose and Forfar also getting more than they do at the moment. You're putting clubs who are capable of sustaining playing at a national level into a regional league with one of the reasons for doing so being to save them time and money through less travelling, yet giving them more travelling.

Forfar to Brora is about 4hrs. Forfar to Wick is about 5hrs.

There is no easy solution due to the distribution of our clubs. Some poor team will always get shafted every now and then with an almighty trek.

We're so hung up on labels etc we conveniently miss what actually works.

[cmontheloknow]

8 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

I personally don't care I'm not bothered about the travelling. For me it's part and parcel of football and sport, even if Roselea weren't paying my mates, a guy in my works son is 18 and plays Ice hockey... You think the travelling in football is bad, should see the miles he will rake up in a weekend. The local football thing for me just frustrates me. You being a pollock fan you'll get loads of local games but then again so will a team like Clyde or QP based down there in the central belt. It's where the vast vast majority of teams are.

You said that your pals left Montrose because they would have more travelling after moving league. That was not forseen when they joined NRSJFA as they thought they were shortening travelling and that will likely change next season anyway.

There are of course sports that have greater journeys, rugby too, but are these guys amateur? Juniors get paid travel expenses and when the gate is non-existent that is a burden on clubs.

[1320Lichtie]

You said that your pals left Montrose because they would have more travelling after moving league. That was not forseen when they joined NRSJFA as they thought they were shortening travelling and that will likely change next season anyway.

There are of course sports that have greater journeys, rugby too, but are these guys amateur? Juniors get paid travel expenses and when the gate is non-existent that is a burden on clubs.

Sorry I see. Yeah I get you now, they did leave for that reason though as they're from Arbroath, so it was easier for them when they played south of here. After they moved though I saw a screenshot of their new league and the distances in it... Pretty sure some of them were horrendous. And they never got wages from Roselea but they get a small wage from Tayport I'm sure. And their expenses covered of course. Sure it was just a boot allowance they were getting at Roselea.

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Sorry I see. Yeah I get you now, they did leave for that reason though as they're from Arbroath, so it was easier for them when they played south of here. After they moved though I saw a screenshot of their new league and the distances in it... Pretty sure some of them were horrendous. And they never got wages from Roselea but they get a small wage from Tayport I'm sure. And their expenses covered of course. Sure it was just a boot allowance they were getting at Roselea.

It will vary from club to club what the players get i suppose. The new league does have horrendous travelling but that is only because they were put in the West section (which is based around Elgin etc) as on longtitude, they are west of the dividing line. They thought they'd go into East whcih is Aberdeen-based. The top division in North is more Aberdeen-based so if they do go up, then most away games will be in Aberdeen.

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

You said that your pals left Montrose because they would have more travelling after moving league. That was not forseen when they joined NRSJFA as they thought they were shortening travelling and that will likely change next season anyway.
There are of course sports that have greater journeys, rugby too, but are these guys amateur? Juniors get paid travel expenses and when the gate is non-existent that is a burden on clubs.

The young lad that plays hockey doesn't get paid... Travels down to Dumfries every weekend practically and in England a lot too. It's absolutely insane. Guy in work spends his whole weekend taking the 2 of them all over the country. As a fan I quite enjoy it, and you'd imagine players will have their best days out on the bus to long away games. All part of it. Unless Todd Lumsden is your manager..

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

The young lad that plays hockey doesn't get paid... Travels down to Dumfries every weekend practically and in England a lot too. It's absolutely insane. Guy in work spends his whole weekend taking the 2 of them all over the country. As a fan I quite enjoy it, and you'd imagine players will have their best days out on the bus to long away games. All part of it. Unless Todd Lumsden is your manager..

Thing is at amateur level where the guys play to play, travel is self-funding. At Pollok for example, if we take a bus to say Dundee it's the best part of £500 out of club funds plus every player and coach on the bus is being paid to travel as well in their wages. The local amateur club here in Lochgilphead has its players pay £400 a season to play for them.