Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[Shanner]

11 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

But if yer ambitious enough ye would nae be in an "allegedly" lower standard of league for long surely  ?

 

a lot of Junior fans come across like they think they would be signing up for a permanent stint in the LL. Obviously they know that a pyramid would mean they could be out of it in 1 season but for some reason there's a fixation on the LL itself rather than the full senior system. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

I've been to an Edinburgh city game

They are not making their figures up

They've had some poor ones and some good ones

A 400 average would be correct

You thinking they're making it up is really fucking hilarious

 

Eta: from my years and years of going I'm actually convinced a lot of clubs punt the attendance figures down if anything

 

I have been at a game there also, prior to the game we went to the social club because we knew three of the Talbot buses were going there, there was a hold up due to an accident and they were late, so me and my three mates who had travelled by train sat there until 2.15 ourselves, not a single City supporter in the pace, none, zilch, nana! At the game there was no more than a handful. Now suddenly out the blue 400 fans are turning up to watch them getting pumped. People quote official attendances on here like they're carved in stone. Celtic were regularly exaggerating their crowds a few seasons ago, everyone knew it. Yes clubs do go the other way with it I suspect. Some, Pollok for example, will be pretty close. What is written in the paper as official attendance will bear no relation to the end of season accounts I suggest. Anyway, even if you're right, they still would be better off in a non league set up as I proposed and so would your club. 

[CityDave]

14 hours ago, calmac25 said:

 

I posted elsewhere recently that I'd stood next to one of the guys on the licencing committee at Bonnyrigg earlier this year.

I might get shot down for it being a Gregg's type story but like to think I'm reliable enough!

He said that there was no limit on teams who could apply but they had to commit to the pyramid.

I'm not sure what the 'commit' term means as Golspie, Glasgow Uni, Burntisland and Girvan have all been successful since and aren't in the pyramid.

Does Old Northerner still post as he seemed to be involved in the process at Haddington who sadly don't seem to have made any progress with their application?

The SFA link I posted yesterday with the list of clubs outside the pyramid pretty much says anyone can achieve an Entry Level Licence if they wanted to. I've heard this commit to the pyramid phrase before, but if a club wants to join the LL or HL then they're committed anyway. There is no difference in the licence between what Golspie Sutherland hold and many of clubs already in the so called pyramid.

[Shanner]

If you over-declare your crowds would the Tax man not be all over you for his share of the gate receipts? Seems quite an expensive way to bum yourself up. 

 

[calmac25]

I went to Meadowbank yesterday and would say the 368 crowd was fair enough including a fair amount from Stirling too

[Bankies Alive]

13 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

But if yer ambitious enough ye would nae be in an "allegedly" lower standard of league for long surely  ?

 

I'm sure Pollok fans would just love to waste a season of football playing on public parks in the SoS League!

[Cyclizine]

I have been at a game there also, prior to the game we went to the social club because we knew three of the Talbot buses were going there, there was a hold up due to an accident and they were late, so me and my three mates who had travelled by train sat there until 2.15 ourselves, not a single City supporter in the pace, none, zilch, nana! At the game there was no more than a handful. Now suddenly out the blue 400 fans are turning up to watch them getting pumped. People quote official attendances on here like they're carved in stone. Celtic were regularly exaggerating their crowds a few seasons ago, everyone knew it. Yes clubs do go the other way with it I suspect. Some, Pollok for example, will be pretty close. What is written in the paper as official attendance will bear no relation to the end of season accounts I suggest. Anyway, even if you're right, they still would be better off in a non league set up as I proposed and so would your club. 

Give it a rest with your anecdotes and prejudices, Isa, you're like a broken record. In what way would City be better in a non-league set up? They've just stepped up from non-league and now have bigger crowds, more exposure and presumably more turnover.

Scotland is a small country with the majority of clubs within a couple of hours drive of each other, with a few exceptions. There is no need to regionalise at City's level. I'm sure it was HJ who showed that it makes hardly if any difference to travelled miles anyway.

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, Bankies Alive said:

I'm sure Pollok fans would just love to waste a season of football playing on public parks in the SoS League!

The only way is up

[Jack Burton]

I went to Meadowbank yesterday and would say the 368 crowd was fair enough including a fair amount from Stirling too

We will need to wait for confirmation from Isa that you are a reliable source before we can believe this.

[HibeeJibee]

I wouldn't hold your breath. IG still doesn't seem to have got over the fact that Edinburgh City beat them, or that more people watched them host Brora in the next round.


City have reached SPFL2, doubled-to-trebled their crowds, gained more publicity than ever, accessed a big increase in prizemoney, played various professional clubs in the cups, and are on a winning streak.

That's 4 months in. Who knows what the future holds, but I find it very doubtful they're pining for a return to playing in a local league like pre-LL.

[1320Lichtie]

I have been at a game there also, prior to the game we went to the social club because we knew three of the Talbot buses were going there, there was a hold up due to an accident and they were late, so me and my three mates who had travelled by train sat there until 2.15 ourselves, not a single City supporter in the pace, none, zilch, nana! At the game there was no more than a handful. Now suddenly out the blue 400 fans are turning up to watch them getting pumped. People quote official attendances on here like they're carved in stone. Celtic were regularly exaggerating their crowds a few seasons ago, everyone knew it. Yes clubs do go the other way with it I suspect. Some, Pollok for example, will be pretty close. What is written in the paper as official attendance will bear no relation to the end of season accounts I suggest. Anyway, even if you're right, they still would be better off in a non league set up as I proposed and so would your club. 

You are so clueless it's ridiculous

[HibeeJibee]

Just reading his quote again I'd missed "turning up to watch them getting pumped". Quite bizarre.

Apart from losing 3-0 at Elgin and 2-0 at Cowdenbeath in the first 2 away games, they haven't lost a game by more than 1 goal. They've 3 wins & 3 draws in their last 6 games. Unbeaten at home in 2 months. They are currently sat in 7th.

In the Scottish Cup they beat Forfar and lost 1-0 to East Fife of the division above after a replay.

Claiming their attendances must be fraudulent is bad enough - to say they're getting "pumped" is patently untrue.

[1320Lichtie]

Just reading his quote again I'd missed "turning up to watch them getting pumped". Quite bizarre.

Apart from losing 3-0 at Elgin and 2-0 at Cowdenbeath in the first 2 away games, they haven't lost a game by more than 1 goal. They've 3 wins & 3 draws in their last 6 games. Unbeaten at home in 2 months. They are currently sat in 7th.

In the Scottish Cup they beat Forfar and lost 1-0 to East Fife of the division above after a replay.

Claiming their attendances must be fraudulent is bad enough - to say they're getting "pumped" is patently untrue.

Talbot

Extremely jealous of Edinburgh City

So it seems

[pie n beans]

I have heard that very shortly each LL club needs a doctor on board and one or two others things that most teams don't have but I stupidly can't remember, but the criteria is going up.

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, pie n beans said:

I have heard that very shortly each LL club needs a doctor on board and one or two others things that most teams don't have but I stupidly can't remember, but the criteria is going up.

It's all in here: SFA Licencing

I'm fairly sure clubs already need a club doctor - for advice. They don't need to be physically present at the game, jut the usual first aiders.

[thelegendthatis]

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

It's all in here: SFA Licencing

I'm fairly sure clubs already need a club doctor - for advice. They don't need to be physically present at the game, jut the usual first aiders.

I am sure those junior clubs whose ambitions include playing the likes of Selkirk, Hawick Royal Albert, Vale of Leithen, Civil Service Strollers, Clyde, Montrose and the mighty Edinburgh City already know all about SFA Licencing. After all the SFA have so many salesmen (club development) staff who will batter your door down if you so much as hint at being interested in Q mark, community club, pyramid stuff. And then the bribes commence!

It all sounds very exiting, but we all know the reality of where Scotland stands in world football, nationally and at club level. I am sure HibeeJibee will provide some coefficient that helps in any resulting meaningless discussions. No need to discuss it, we all know the reality. And of course it has been Irish managers who have taken Scottish clubs to what little successes they have had in Europe over the last 10 years or so.

Given the pile of soggy smelly stuff that the SFA oversee, despite the large sums of money spent on youth development, centres of excellence, quality marks, academies it is still just shuffling more costly deckchairs on the Titanic, carried out by well paid, arrogant ex pros.  

Tickets anyone? 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

I am sure those junior clubs whose ambitions include playing the likes of Selkirk, Hawick Royal Albert, Vale of Leithen, Civil Service Strollers, Clyde, Montrose and the mighty Edinburgh City already know all about SFA Licencing. After all the SFA have so many salesmen (club development) staff who will batter your door down if you so much as hint at being interested in Q mark, community club, pyramid stuff. And then the bribes commence!

It all sounds very exiting, but we all know the reality of where Scotland stands in world football, nationally and at club level. I am sure HibeeJibee will provide some coefficient that helps in any resulting meaningless discussions. No need to discuss it, we all know the reality. And of course it has been Irish managers who have taken Scottish clubs to what little successes they have had in Europe over the last 10 years or so.

Given the pile of soggy smelly stuff that the SFA oversee, despite the large sums of money spent on youth development, centres of excellence, quality marks, academies it is still just shuffling more costly deckchairs on the Titanic, carried out by well paid, arrogant ex pros.  

Tickets anyone? 

 

 

What does any of this have to do with supporting your team and wanting them to play at the highest level they possibly can by the way?

I'm not being funny but I'm not overly bothered about where Scotland stands as a nation or how are teams do in Europe or indeed the SFA. I only really care about Arbroath. That's the good thing about it were just a small club in Scotland we don't have to care about all that shite.

[thelegendthatis]

Depends what you mean by 'highest level'.

Given Bonnyrigg beat a championship team (draw at home, then beating them away) doesn't say that the top junior teams are better then most Championship teams, but there could be a discussion worth having on the subject. But that is just the football side of things. 

But we are comparing apples and pears here. The junior clubs are owned and administered by their supporters run on a not for profit basis, most can't even go overdrawn without the express approval of their members, and also with their strong traditional community identity they are different from most senior clubs, which are run for profit. Some run well, some poorly, some illegally, and others dodgy as whatever.

So by joining the pyramid, that is what you join. Clubs should enter those portals at their peril.

Are the SFA, the SPFL and their member clubs 'fit for purpose' which I believe is the current term for organisations which are effin useless? No, of course not.

How do you sell the membership the fancy awards and badges on offer, when they are all based on a dodgy structure with questionable goals.

I accept this is my opinion, but definitely not exclusive to me.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-owner-ann-budge-bites-6990097 (Add Deloittes to this list)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36428309

https://consult.scotland.gov.uk/active-scotland/supporter-involvement-in-scottish-football-clubs/results/00502435.pdf

https://www.sfm.scot/accountability-transparency-brave-sir-robin/

Do you trust the SFA to administer football in the interests of the sport? Around 1500 took part and the percentage shares were as follows No: 95% 

Sort out and clean up senior football and then, and only then, should junior clubs move to this 'higher level', on ethical and playing levels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

You make some good points but again I'm not overly bothered about any of that as a football fan. Saturday's 3-5 pm and having a laugh with mates home and away watching us is all I care about. We can personally as a club only reach a peak level, something like the level Dumbarton have been at funnily enough the last few years but that's why I keep going paying my money every week. See my hometown club get to the highest level they can.

Eta: that's why everyone goes, including junior fans really isn't it, vast majority of fans at your level just want to do the same at the level/leagues they're at

[oneteaminglasgow]

Depends what you mean by 'highest level'.
Given Bonnyrigg beat a championship team (draw at home, then beating them away) doesn't say that the top junior teams are better then most Championship teams, but there could be a discussion worth having on the subject. But that is just the football side of things. 
But we are comparing apples and pears here. The junior clubs are owned and administered by their supporters run on a not for profit basis, most can't even go overdrawn without the express approval of their members, and also with their strong traditional community identity they are different from most senior clubs, which are run for profit. Some run well, some poorly, some illegally, and others dodgy as whatever.
So by joining the pyramid, that is what you join. Clubs should enter those portals at their peril.
Are the SFA, the SPFL and their member clubs 'fit for purpose' which I believe is the current term for organisations which are effin useless? No, of course not.
How do you sell the membership the fancy awards and badges on offer, when they are all based on a dodgy structure with questionable goals.
I accept this is my opinion, but definitely not exclusive to me.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-owner-ann-budge-bites-6990097 (Add Deloittes to this list)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36428309
https://consult.scotland.gov.uk/active-scotland/supporter-involvement-in-scottish-football-clubs/results/00502435.pdf
https://www.sfm.scot/accountability-transparency-brave-sir-robin/

Do you trust the SFA to administer football in the interests of the sport? Around 1500 took part and the percentage shares were as follows No: 95% 

Sort out and clean up senior football and then, and only then, should junior clubs move to this 'higher level', on ethical and playing levels.

 

 

 
 
 
 

What an overly romanticised and extremely partisan view of junior football.