Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[1320Lichtie]

 

Long Time Lurker made up his mind sometime thirty or forty years ago that senior cliubs are "subsidised".

You won't change his mind on the subject with facts or reason. It's like hoping for a block of diamond-encrusted granite to be washed away by a shallow burn overnight.

Infuriating

[LeeKRR1878]

Well do up your ground and join its not difficult.It's really pretty annoying seeing this subsidised talk. Clubs are all backed and sponsored well within their community's. Arbroath average was something like 651 even though we finished 9th, at £13 a head adults and £7 concessions. The community back it to a decent level and clubs put in hard work. The prize money is a tiny tiny percentage of what we actually take in a season. This subsidised talk really gets on my tits.

And I never said it was but everyone in the pyramid plays their part. I have a great interest in all the clubs, like most lower league fans. If that was the case it would be a 6 team league only involving Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, United and Dundee.

It isn't difficult to some clubs maybe but others simply don't have the funding to improve on their grounds otherwise don't you think they would?

[fueradejuego]

14 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Without being disrespectful to senior leagues my man, because people are clearly fond of their clubs and quite rightly protective of the grade, but my club, who are entirely self generating and progress on and off the park most seasons are a model of self reliance and are able to thrive on their own two feet. They are therefore a good model for any club to replicate. However, they have no interest in the lower reaches of senior football, too expensive all round and is not exciting. It's not so much the clubs that don't excite but the set up that has rolled along for years. I wouldn't mind playing Arbroath or Brechin in a national competition, good away day. If you don't get my point it is this. Senior football should be for genuine big clubs who have the potential to go full time or if not have the ground and support to merit the grade. Not my club or the ones mentioned above. They should be in a regionalised non league like Germany which works very well. If a club can grow and genuinly bring a plate to the senior table, great, go for it and progression should be possible. The top regional non league clubs should get entry into the big Scottish and all should enter into a national non league cup. The top clubs from each region should play off to find a winner. A new fresh set up could revitalise and is perhaps the kick start our country needs. 

Why can't you understand that all clubs generate their own income? And if you wish to classify prize money as a subsidy then Talbot have been getting subsidised due to their involvement in the Scottish Cup over the past few season.

Tell me the senior clubs who are not self reliant and who don't stand on their own two feet?

 

Senior football should be a closed shop and not about merit on the pitch?

Sorry guys, you're a cracking team but you only have a small stadium and the population of you town, well, that's just too small as well I'm afraid.

As HJ said above, this sort of thinking is all about the Juniors gaining plenty and offering up nothing in return whilst senior clubs lose out. It's in no way, a radical solution for Scottish football but it is a solution that you believe would see your team compete for honours. So its what you want.

 

I'd like to see an all in pyramid. Let teams find their own level with specific guidelines on facilities etc that need to be in position to reach certain levels e.g. floodlights. It will probably never happen due to various vested interests etc but I completely oppose your version of a modified closed shop simply because it suits you and your team.

[Bankies Alive]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Well do up your ground and join its not difficult. It's really pretty annoying seeing this subsidised talk. Clubs are all backed and sponsored well within their community's. Arbroath average was something like 651 even though we finished 9th, at £13 a head adults and £7 concessions. The community back it to a decent level and clubs put in hard work. The prize money is a tiny tiny percentage of what we actually take in a season. This subsidised talk really gets on my tits.

And I never said it was but everyone in the pyramid plays their part. I have a great interest in all the clubs, like most lower league fans. If that was the case it would be a 6 team league only involving Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, United and Dundee.

Prize money would assume that you`ve achieved something or won something!  Finishing bottom of SPFL 2 and getting handed £40k is a SUBSIDY add to that SFA hand outs,Scottish,League and Challenge Cup money even for getting knocked out at the 1st attempt and it all adds up to a tidy sum and that's before you`ve got any gate money,sponsorship etc. and its all because of an inflated status.

Most lower league SPFL clubs are small diddy part time teams with a few hundred fans just the same as the non-league seniors and most Junior clubs.

If it wasn't for the subsidy clubs like Berwick wouldn`t even be able to afford to go to Elgin twice a season.

[Blackie Gold]

52 minutes ago, Bankies Alive said:

Prize money would assume that you`ve achieved something or won something!  Finishing bottom of SPFL 2 and getting handed £40k is a SUBSIDY add to that SFA hand outs,Scottish,League and Challenge Cup money even for getting knocked out at the 1st attempt and it all adds up to a tidy sum and that's before you`ve got any gate money,sponsorship etc. and its all because of an inflated status.

Most lower league SPFL clubs are small diddy part time teams with a few hundred fans just the same as the non-league seniors and most Junior clubs.

If it wasn't for the subsidy clubs like Berwick wouldn`t even be able to afford to go to Elgin twice a season.

^^^^^^^this

[tommyboy]

45 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Ive done Aberdeen to Prestwick in a motorhome in 2.5 hours.

 

35 minutes ago, Quantum Leap said:

 

I've done Norwich to Auchinleck in a VW camper van in 7.3 hours.

 

Either of you guys featured here? .....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohkAxbeMxVo

 

[CityDave]

1 hour ago, fueradejuego said:

Why can't you understand that all clubs generate their own income? And if you wish to classify prize money as a subsidy then Talbot have been getting subsidised due to their involvement in the Scottish Cup over the past few season.

Tell me the senior clubs who are not self reliant and who don't stand on their own two feet?

 

Senior football should be a closed shop and not about merit on the pitch?

Sorry guys, you're a cracking team but you only have a small stadium and the population of you town, well, that's just too small as well I'm afraid.

As HJ said above, this sort of thinking is all about the Juniors gaining plenty and offering up nothing in return whilst senior clubs lose out. It's in no way, a radical solution for Scottish football but it is a solution that you believe would see your team compete for honours. So its what you want.

 

I'd like to see an all in pyramid. Let teams find their own level with specific guidelines on facilities etc that need to be in position to reach certain levels e.g. floodlights. It will probably never happen due to various vested interests etc but I completely oppose your version of a modified closed shop simply because it suits you and your team.

 

Good post

Clubs should be able to stand on their own feet without subsidising from parties not directly involved in running the club, prize money from the competitions or even relying on the money generated by having much bigger clubs in the same league. Any that don't don't deserve to exist and from what I have seen over the years more often than not its the big clubs that f**k it up financially more than the smaller ones and are inclined to live outside their means, .

For clubs like Hamilton, Inverness CT, and Ross County who are smaller than quite a few clubs in the league below it amuses me how some folk get upset about how they are there and clubs like Hibs and Dundee Utd or in the past Rangers and Hearts aren't, well...the big boys fucked it up and put themselves in that position. The three smaller clubs deserve to be where they are because they are well run clubs that live within their means and achieved their place on merit, simply because they were also better teams than the big boys who very likely wasted the resources they take for granted. But the dickheads will still keep crying about it regardless. This doesn't just apply at the top, its the same right down through non leagues. Clubs should reap the reward for being well run which also transforms to the team as well. You don't often get well run clubs that are continually terrible on the pitch every season, but there are plenty that are badly run but have a very good football team that achieves a lot. It doesn't last, they soon get found out.

 

[CityDave]

There's too much self interest in Scottish Football and this is a huge part of the problem and it goes from top to bottom Premiership right down to amateur. What can these clubs do for Scottish Football, not what can Scottish Football do for me? The SPFL/SFA/LL/HL seem to owe some folks and their clubs a living, given what I've read on here.

For potential LL or even SPFL clubs like Talbot or Linlithgow Rose there should be more emphasis on what these clubs can do for Scottish football, involvement in the community with such things as youth team football, woman's football, working with the SFA to raise standards in the game, coaching etc and also fundraising events etc. These are examples that encourage involvement and interest from football fans and other outside the game and also from media. I'd rather see any new clubs into the LL/HL set up with these in place rather than the self centered boasting over 'look at our trophy cabinet' or 'look at our huge support'. I would worry about the future of these clubs if this is all they have to offer.

Plenty of casualties along the way in the English pyramid, some clubs went down the pan because they couldn't modernise and focussed on spending on the team giving a boom and then a bust outcome, rather than spend money on improving their facilities. I've seen something similar this in Junior football as well with clubs having a few years of success, then they plummet down the leagues relegations in successive years. Juniors cannot take this way of running a club into the SPFL/LL/HL set up, certain clubs will fold.

[1320Lichtie]

Prize money would assume that you`ve achieved something or won something!  Finishing bottom of SPFL 2 and getting handed £40k is a SUBSIDY add to that SFA hand outs,Scottish,League and Challenge Cup money even for getting knocked out at the 1st attempt and it all adds up to a tidy sum and that's before you`ve got any gate money,sponsorship etc. and its all because of an inflated status.

Most lower league SPFL clubs are small diddy part time teams with a few hundred fans just the same as the non-league seniors and most Junior clubs.

If it wasn't for the subsidy clubs like Berwick wouldn`t even be able to afford to go to Elgin twice a season.

Correct me if I'm wrong but every single club in the world that competes in a senior professional league gets SUBSIDISED then regardless of whether they finish bottom or top.

What about Shrewsbury then for example they'll get a handsome sum for finishing wherever they do even though nobody in the grand scheme of the football league is that bothered about them.

Just because it doesn't happen with the juniors don't try and make it sound like its a bad thing or that it's where our main source of income comes from. We get it for participating in the league. It's an open shop now, anyone can get these subsidies. We've spent thousands doing up gayfield.

You sound extremely bitter.

Eta: lowest average Gate in the SPFL is like 450, without sounding the hibeejibee claxon the seniors are much more supported than junior outfits. You calling them diddys is a complete minter. That is all.

[thelegendthatis]

2 hours ago, fueradejuego said:

Why can't you understand that all clubs generate their own income? And if you wish to classify prize money as a subsidy then Talbot have been getting subsidised due to their involvement in the Scottish Cup over the past few season.

Tell me the senior clubs who are not self reliant and who don't stand on their own two feet?

 

Senior football should be a closed shop and not about merit on the pitch?

Sorry guys, you're a cracking team but you only have a small stadium and the population of you town, well, that's just too small as well I'm afraid.

As HJ said above, this sort of thinking is all about the Juniors gaining plenty and offering up nothing in return whilst senior clubs lose out. It's in no way, a radical solution for Scottish football but it is a solution that you believe would see your team compete for honours. So its what you want.

 

I'd like to see an all in pyramid. Let teams find their own level with specific guidelines on facilities etc that need to be in position to reach certain levels e.g. floodlights. It will probably never happen due to various vested interests etc but I completely oppose your version of a modified closed shop simply because it suits you and your team.

Easy answer to that one. Every senior club that has gone into administration or liquidation has been unable to generate enough income to survive. 

Then you have teams like Stenhousmuir who obtain public funding through various means including the Lottery to build 3/4G pitches, which they then rent out to local clubs to generate income to keep their club running. There are many clubs in the senior ranks/pyramid who operate on this basis. Why? Because they are unable to pay their way just on gate income, sponsorship and prize money for league position or cup success.

They also get substantial Government money which is laundered by the SFA first of all, and then passed to clubs. Cashback for Communities, Midnight Leagues etc. I know one SPFL club was clearing £250k per annum on a youth employment and training scheme, for which they did no work other than to run an initial PR launch event, and then farmed the kids out to others to do the work. And that was just one of their 'initiatives'.

Problem is junior clubs are not crafty enough and do not have the resources to exploit the system they way senior clubs do.

 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

Easy answer to that one. Every senior club that has gone into administration or liquidation has been unable to generate enough income to survive. 
Then you have teams like Stenhousmuir who obtain public funding through various means including the Lottery to build 3/4G pitches, which they then rent out to local clubs to generate income to keep their club running. There are many clubs in the senior ranks/pyramid who operate on this basis. Why? Because they are unable to pay their way just on gate income, sponsorship and prize money for league position or cup success.
They also get substantial Government money which is laundered by the SFA first of all, and then passed to clubs. Cashback for Communities, Midnight Leagues etc. I know one SPFL club was clearing £250k per annum on a youth employment and training scheme, for which they did no work other than to run an initial PR launch event, and then farmed the kids out to others to do the work. And that was just one of their 'initiatives'.
Problem is junior clubs are not crafty enough and do not have the resources to exploit the system they way senior clubs do.
 
 
 

[calmac25]

Easy answer to that one. Every senior club that has gone into administration or liquidation has been unable to generate enough income to survive. 
Then you have teams like Stenhousmuir who obtain public funding through various means including the Lottery to build 3/4G pitches, which they then rent out to local clubs to generate income to keep their club running. There are many clubs in the senior ranks/pyramid who operate on this basis. Why? Because they are unable to pay their way just on gate income, sponsorship and prize money for league position or cup success.
They also get substantial Government money which is laundered by the SFA first of all, and then passed to clubs. Cashback for Communities, Midnight Leagues etc. I know one SPFL club was clearing £250k per annum on a youth employment and training scheme, for which they did no work other than to run an initial PR launch event, and then farmed the kids out to others to do the work. And that was just one of their 'initiatives'.
Problem is junior clubs are not crafty enough and do not have the resources to exploit the system they way senior clubs do.
 
 
 

Any junior club that has a 3g pitch will have funded it the same way aside from large who have a local philanthropist.

Kelty, Blackburn, Cumnock, Renfrew etc have become community clubs and get grants from cashback for communities, sportscotland and local councils. It's not exclusive to senior football.

Locally to me penicuik, dalkeith and easthouses all play out of council owned grass pitches

[The Mighty]

All the talk about 3g piches, funding from grants, the first will need funds to repair or upgrade, the second will come and go just like most initiatives which are well meant but cost money, money which appears to be running out fast if you look at the financial landscape for all councils. That aside, is any of the initiatives making Scottish football any better, of the teams mentioned in the latest post (no criticism of the post), perhaps  there are positive signs at one or two of the clubs, not unfortunately enough to change Scottish football, then again, small steps!

[Shanner]

Surely being part of a greater collective that assures you a certain level of income - and therefore stability - is just common sense and a sign that it's a good organisation to belong to. 

 

 

 

[Shanner]

1 hour ago, thelegendthatis said:

Easy answer to that one. Every senior club that has gone into administration or liquidation has been unable to generate enough income to survive. 

Then you have teams like Stenhousmuir who obtain public funding through various means including the Lottery to build 3/4G pitches, which they then rent out to local clubs to generate income to keep their club running. There are many clubs in the senior ranks/pyramid who operate on this basis. Why? Because they are unable to pay their way just on gate income, sponsorship and prize money for league position or cup success.

They also get substantial Government money which is laundered by the SFA first of all, and then passed to clubs. Cashback for Communities, Midnight Leagues etc. I know one SPFL club was clearing £250k per annum on a youth employment and training scheme, for which they did no work other than to run an initial PR launch event, and then farmed the kids out to others to do the work. And that was just one of their 'initiatives'.

Problem is junior clubs are not crafty enough and do not have the resources to exploit the system they way senior clubs do.

 

 

 

You say this as if there's something wrong with it.

The public funding was available and now they have an asset - a 4g pitch - which serves their community and can be "sweated" to bring in revenue. That is very much what self-sufficiency is all about. 

[Bankies Alive]

Only in Scotland do we have affiliated Associations!

The FA in England run all of football in England and make sure the money is filtered down to ALL clubs.

Up here the SFA allow affiliate associations to run their own affairs with the caveat being that they get the square root of nowt from the governing body! 

The SFA should run all of football in this country but I suspect it suits them just fine to keep another 160 clubs noses out of the trough.

[GLESGABOY]

3 minutes ago, Bankies Alive said:

Only in Scotland do we have affiliated Associations!

The FA in England run all of football in England and make sure the money is filtered down to ALL clubs.

Up here the SFA allow affiliate associations to run their own affairs with the caveat being that they get the square root of nowt from the governing body! 

The SFA should run all of football in this country but I suspect it suits them just fine to keep another 160 clubs noses out of the trough.

You`re kidding yourself on if you think the English system is any better than whats currently on the table here. There are aspects that certainly stand out that works for them but in general terms the amount of money spent/invested/filtered through the leagues to grassroots is pitiful in relation to the overall revenues generated in England. 

[HibeeJibee]

9 minutes ago, Bankies Alive said:

Only in Scotland do we have affiliated Associations!

The FA in England run all of football in England and make sure the money is filtered down to ALL clubs.

Up here the SFA allow affiliate associations to run their own affairs with the caveat being that they get the square root of nowt from the governing body! 

The SFA should run all of football in this country but I suspect it suits them just fine to keep another 160 clubs noses out of the trough.

That's not actually true though obviously they aren't getting huge sums sent down. SFA provides a six-figure sum to the affiliated FAs each year. There's also a provision of services - they all base themselves out of the SFA offices at Hampden and it is the SFA who registers players, appoints referees, hosts their websites, and so on.

When the SJFA made a winter payment to its clubs a few years ago that was funded - a majority of it IIRC - from an SFA payment to SJFA.

[Bankies Alive]

Why do they not just run football themselves? That's what they should be doing!

[HibeeJibee]

Oh, I quite agree.

However, if the SFA announced they were abolishing the national Junior, Welfare and Amateur FAs next year and taking direct control - what would the reaction be?

I suspect this sub-forum would be a seething mess of outrage, protest, denouncements of "Senior interference" and "undemocratic power-grabbing", and so on.