Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Yes, but your reasoning for that was because part-time teams shouldn't be "forced" to travel far.  What's the solution for the 8 part-time clubs that currently occupy League 1?

No it wasn't, my point was that ALL part time clubs travel the length of Scotland currently, that is clearly insane. Regionalisation would help reduce that, and of course if a part-time team are successful then they will eventually move into a league that plays nationwide. That's a.......Pyramid.

Personally I'd only have two top leagues of 14/16 clubs, with regionalisation below that, so it fits that the clubs currently in League Two would merge in with the HL/LL/Junior. That would be the sensible first step.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

 

Again, none of the SPFL have ever expressed a desire for the leagues to be regionalised. Why should we join a regionalised league just to impress the juniors in the hope that they join the pyramid.

Unlike juniors who seem to have a hate of leaving their regions, us SPFL clubs dont mind it. Also think a regionalised league would be shite and boring.

 

Because it would follow very successful models in Germany and England, would create a vibrant system where clubs could find their genuine level. Why do they not want it? Because they are sitting in a cushy number. But even though they will never admit it, Scottish football is becoming less interesting the longer the status quo continues. With the creation of a pyramid, well no need to do anything else, is there? Ach well, we'll all just resort to our bunkers and kid on it's going to be alright on the night!

[JakeSAFC]

No it wasn't, my point was that ALL part time clubs travel the length of Scotland currently, that is clearly insane. Regionalisation would help reduce that, and of course if a part-time team are successful then they will eventually move into a league that plays nationwide. That's a.......Pyramid.

Personally I'd only have two top leagues of 14/16 clubs, with regionalisation below that, so it fits that the clubs currently in League Two would merge in with the HL/LL/Junior. That would be the sensible first step.

Sensible how? SPFL clubs are not bothered with the travel. We do not want regionalistion. Regionalistion should be below SPFL 2, like it already is.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

Sensible how? SPFL clubs are not bothered with the travel. We do not want regionalistion. Regionalistion should be below SPFL 2, like it already is.

You're actually helping prove my point, thanks.

[The Moonster]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

No it wasn't, my point was that ALL part time clubs travel the length of Scotland currently, that is clearly insane. Regionalisation would help reduce that, and of course if a part-time team are successful then they will eventually move into a league that plays nationwide. That's a.......Pyramid.

Personally I'd only have two top leagues of 14/16 clubs, with regionalisation below that, so it fits that the clubs currently in League Two would merge in with the HL/LL/Junior. That would be the sensible first step.

It's clearly not insane though, considering clubs do it every season and it doesn't bankrupt them. The notion that fans don't want to travel long distances is bullshit, look at just about any cup draw thread and you'll see fans actively wishing for long journeys.

 

[Burnie_man]

Just now, The Moonster said:

It's clearly not insane though, considering clubs do it every season and it doesn't bankrupt them. The notion that fans don't want to travel long distances is bullshit, look at just about any cup draw thread and you'll see fans actively wishing for long journeys.

 

OK two examples of games I have been to in the last few seasons.  Albion Rovers v Elgin City, on a Saturday, around a dozen Elgin fans present.  Stirling Albion v Peterhead, on a Saturday, around 25 Peterhead fans present.  That's just to the central belt, not the southern extremities, and I'm sure there's plenty of examples like this.

So who is actually wanting these long journeys? certainly not a majority of these clubs fanbases, that is evident as they don't travel.

You said yourself that around 200 Dumbarton went to Bonnyrigg, how many would have went to say, Buckie, the same or less? how many would have went to Greenock? the fact is, the further away your club travels the less fans go with them, that makes football less accessible. Play more locally, you get more fans going. That applies to the Juniors just as much as the Seniors.

[The Mighty]

Thread is really going round in circles. When has Scottish football been good, why, how do you bring that back? When it was good, was every level good, if the answer is yes, again how do you return the senior game to a much better level, if the answer to these points  can be done great, if they cant, then Scottish football needs others to think up and try new ideas, some of which might be mentioned on this forum, then again, getting people to agree looks difficult!

So now I am going round in circles, guess the answer comes down to  a Team of individuals who receive tremendous support, 90% of the reason why most enjoy success, the rest is probably a bit of luck COTM.

[fueradejuego]

9 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Because it would follow very successful models in Germany and England, would create a vibrant system where clubs could find their genuine level. Why do they not want it? Because they are sitting in a cushy number. But even though they will never admit it, Scottish football is becoming less interesting the longer the status quo continues. With the creation of a pyramid, well no need to do anything else, is there? Ach well, we'll all just resort to our bunkers and kid on it's going to be alright on the night!

Clubs can find their level - so you would be happy with Talbot moving from a top Junior club winning trophies on a regular basis to being a lower end League 2 side constantly fighting off relegation if that's your level? (I don't think that would be your level provided the club continued to develop itself as it has done in the Juniors but some changes would be necessary)

I can never understand what your actual point is in any of your posts.

You always talk about a vibrant non league system, as if the name of the league somehow makes a difference. Whether you chose to call League 2 senior football or rebrand it as something else, its likely to remain in some shape or form in an expanded pyramid system (if that ever comes to fruition).

 

[LongTimeLurker]

15 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

It's clearly not insane though, considering clubs do it every season and it doesn't bankrupt them....

Only because of the way that lower division part-time SPFL clubs are financially doped through handouts generated from revenues attracted by the larger full-time clubs (mainly the Old Firm). Take that away and your finances would be similar to Pollok's and the cost of running a bus to venues beyond Dundee would start to become an issue.

[The Moonster]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

OK two examples of games I have been to in the last few seasons.  Albion Rovers v Elgin City, on a Saturday, around a dozen Elgin fans present.  Stirling Albion v Peterhead, on a Saturday, around 25 Peterhead fans present.  That's just to the central belt, not the southern extremities, and I'm sure there's plenty of examples like this.

So who is actually wanting these long journeys? certainly not a majority of these clubs fanbases, that is evident as they don't travel.

You said yourself that around 200 Dumbarton went to Bonnyrigg, how many would have went to say, Buckie, the same or less? how many would have went to Greenock? the fact is, the further away your club travels the less fans go with them, that makes football less accessible. Play more locally, you get more fans going. That applies to the Juniors just as much as the Seniors.

How many Peterhead fans normally travel to away games, even ones relatively close to them? It's all well in saying "they only had 25 people at that game" but what are you comparing that to?

We probably would've taken 200 to Buckie, probably a bit more than that to Cappielow.

Genuinely, travel is not a problem.

18 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Only because of the way that lower division part-time SPFL clubs are financially doped through handouts generated from revenues attracted by the larger full-time clubs (mainly the Old Firm). Take that away and your finances would be similar to Pollok's and the cost of running a bus to venues beyond Dundee would start to become an issue.

Sounds like the system works to me.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

How many Peterhead fans normally travel to away games, even ones relatively close to them? It's all well in saying "they only had 25 people at that game" but what are you comparing that to?

We probably would've taken 200 to Buckie, probably a bit more than that to Cappielow.

Genuinely, travel is not a problem.

Sounds like the system works to me.

Who knows how many Peterhead (or Elgin) take normally, but I'm guessing that if they were playing Cove Rangers or Formartine or Buckie or Inverurie in a regionalised League Two, the chances are that more would go, I'd hope so anyway otherwise we really are fecked.

[The Moonster]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Who knows how many Peterhead (or Elgin) take normally, but I'm guessing that if they were playing Cove Rangers or Formartine or Buckie or Inverurie in a regionalised League Two, the chances are that more would go, I'd hope so anyway otherwise we really are fecked.

You mean like that Highland League that they used to be a part of but left for the senior leagues?  Why, if your fans wanted more local games, would you enter a league that gives you the complete opposite?  Could it be because the club have ambition to play at the highest level and their fans don't actually mind making the journey to watch their team play at said level?

It's a complete straw man that only junior sides seem to care about.  Funny that.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, The Moonster said:

You mean like that Highland League that they used to be a part of but left for the senior leagues?  Why, if your fans wanted more local games, would you enter a league that gives you the complete opposite?  Could it be because the club have ambition to play at the highest level and their fans don't actually mind making the journey to watch their team play at said level?

It's a complete straw man that only junior sides seem to care about.  Funny that.

I think my examples "punch holes" in the fact that fans of these clubs want to travel nationally. It's clearly not the case, that is the straw man in this debate.

If a regionalised league with a mix of current League Two sides and the best that the HL/LL and Juniors had to offer, then we'd see a lot more interest in our game at that level than we have at present. I think it would bring on board some of the top Juniors.

Clyde, Berwick, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City and Stirling Albion, in a 16 team league with eg. East Kilbride, Spartans, East Stirling, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, Bo'ness United, Kelty Hearts, Bonnyrigg Rose and Beith  would in my opinion generate a lot of interest in the lower reaches of the SPFL.

Forfar, Elgin, Arbroath, Montrose, Buckie Thistle, Brora Rangers, Cove Rangers, Formartine, Fraserburgh, Inverurie, Banks O'Dee, Culter, Lochee Utd, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Panmure in the North.

I don't expect you to agree, but turkeys don't vote for Christmas afterall.

[parsforlife]

Not wanting to compete in a pyramid because you might not win as often is the most pathetic excuse going.

[Hampden Diehard]

5 hours ago, Blackie Gold said:

Maybe the Juniors should go back to the old Intermediate Dispute and hunt the SFA vulture teams that gather at the end of the season to snap up out of contract Juniors which robs the Junior team of hard earned transfer cash. However rules are rules.

Easy solution to this; give the guys a contract that takes them past the end of the season.  If they're out of contract..they don't have a contract.  If they do, you are quite right to ask for a fee.

Edited to add: Serious question - Do Junior clubs pay fellow Juniors for out of contract players at the end of the season or are they vultures too?

[The Moonster]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think my examples "punch holes" in the fact that fans of these clubs want to travel nationally. It's clearly not the case, that is the straw man in this debate.

If a regionalised league with a mix of current League Two sides and the best that the HL/LL and Juniors had to offer, then we'd see a lot more interest in our game at that level than we have at present. I think it would bring on board some of the top Juniors.

Clyde, Berwick, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City and Stirling Albion, in a 16 team league with eg. East Kilbride, Spartans, East Stirling, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, Bo'ness United, Kelty Hearts, Bonnyrigg Rose and Beith  would in my opinion generate a lot of interest in the lower reaches of the SPFL.

Forfar, Elgin, Arbroath, Montrose, Buckie Thistle, Brora Rangers, Cove Rangers, Formartine, Fraserburgh, Inverurie, Banks O'Dee, Culter, Lochee Utd, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Panmure in the North.

I don't expect you to agree, but turkeys don't vote for Christmas afterall.

You can't even tell me what Peterhead normally take to a game and you're pointing out one of the lowest they've had. Your examples are useless without a comparison.

Aye, I can see the Clyde fans wetting themselves at the prospect of travelling to the likes of Bo'ness every week. 

There are problems with our game, travelling distances is not one of them.

 

 

 

[fan of the juniors]

A lot of valid points from both sides & obviously if this was to happen then not everyone would be happy . A good place to start would be a national non league Scottish cup . Correct me if I'm wrong but Highland & lowland league sides don't have this at the moment. Would love to play say Forres Mechanics or Dalbeattie in a Scottish Cup tie .

[Ivo den Bieman]

20 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think my examples "punch holes" in the fact that fans of these clubs want to travel nationally. It's clearly not the case, that is the straw man in this debate.

If a regionalised league with a mix of current League Two sides and the best that the HL/LL and Juniors had to offer, then we'd see a lot more interest in our game at that level than we have at present. I think it would bring on board some of the top Juniors.

Clyde, Berwick, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City and Stirling Albion, in a 16 team league with eg. East Kilbride, Spartans, East Stirling, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, Bo'ness United, Kelty Hearts, Bonnyrigg Rose and Beith  would in my opinion generate a lot of interest in the lower reaches of the SPFL.

Forfar, Elgin, Arbroath, Montrose, Buckie Thistle, Brora Rangers, Cove Rangers, Formartine, Fraserburgh, Inverurie, Banks O'Dee, Culter, Lochee Utd, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Panmure in the North.

I don't expect you to agree, but turkeys don't vote for Christmas afterall.

Regionalisation will not happen as

1. The clubs /chairmen don't want it and

2. neither do the vast majority of the fans who go week in week out.

The fact that (for example) not many Montrose fans normally travel to a league fixture at Galabank does not invalidate points 1 & 2. I speak as someone who was once the only Montrose fan at a midweek fixture there (300 mile round trip for a 0-0 end of season draw in 2010). Most die-hards on here, whatever their club in the lower reaches of the SPFL, will have had that experience at some point.

Times are hard and uncertain, money is tight, people have many more priorities than travelling a long distance to watch two sets of part-time cloggers slug it out. The days of big travelling supports at the lower levels other than for local derbies are probably, like the Dryburgh Cup, and the Tennent's Super Sixes, gone. I can't honestly see regionalisation changing this. Whilst I doubt I'd bother travelling to Annan or Berwick these days, I'm not sure I'd be much more motivated to travel to Brora or Wick under your "regionalised" model

I will admit one thing though- I am bored to death of the SPFL and have only been once this season, partly due to personal / work circumstances but partly also as I feel I am watching the same season year in year out. I have when I have had the time watched a lot more of the Highland League as a neutral and it is a good and enjoyable day out in the main. I hate the leagues of ten and four games a season against the same opposition, and I also really dislike promotion play-offs.

SPFL football just isn't much fun anymore, and it's gruesomely over-priced. Were I living in the Central belt I'd probably spend more time watching the juniors.

 

 

[energyzone]

Why Irvine meadow? They can hardly get anyone through the gates as a junior club for the size of the town, just like Talbot they've also got two senior clubs in Kilmarnock and ayr not far away from them and Irvine is well known as a town that sees loads of buses flocking to parkhead and Ibrox every week. 

I don't see meadow benefiting at all in going for a pyramid setup. 

Every town in the West of Scotland sees buses headed for the two clubs you mentioned.

Meadow are different from Auchinleck in that they play in a town of 40000 that doesn't have a senior team.

As you say - their attendances aren't the greatest so clearly junior football isn't capturing the imagination in Irvine. They already have a great ground and their local rivals rarely provide sustained competition for them so what would they have to lose?

[Burnie_man]

You can't even tell me what Peterhead normally take to a game and you're pointing out one of the lowest they've had. Your examples are useless without a comparison.

Aye, I can see the Clyde fans wetting themselves at the prospect of travelling to the likes of Bo'ness every week. 

There are problems with our game, travelling distances is not one of them.

You keep believing my two examples are useless if it makes you feel you have an argument. If you've been following Dumbarton for any length of time you know as well as I do that these figures are are fairly common.

What was it last season, 4 Stranraer fans at Peterhead?