Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[HibeeJibee]

2 hours ago, Talbot Bing said:

This clown JakeSAFC comes into the forum to gloat everything a juniors team gets beat by a senior team.

As his very own team are teetering on the edge of their own league they may find themselves playing juniors teams more often in the future at the preliminary stages of the Scottish cup.

It'll be interesting to see how big they are then

Unless you're expecting them to suffer a double relegation to the EOS League, or quit Senior football for some reason, that's impossible.

[jimbaxters]

Just now, Quantum Leap said:

 

No idea where you get these ideas from, it's poorly supported and the teams in it are no better than top Junior sides.

 

Has someone got the stats to hand for Juniors v LL sides in the cup please?

[HibeeJibee]

28 minutes ago, Talbot Bing said:

Neutral? Ok lol

Most of their grounds aren't any better than top tier juniors. Some are soulless looking and some are just playing fiends.

 

 

That's simply a falsehood.

LL clubs have to be licensed and this requires the grounds to be enclosed. Most of them have floodlights and all of them have seated stands except one (at Vale of Leithen there is only an enclosure). They all have to provide proper toilets - including disabled toilets - paved access and so on. There is a very legitimate argument over playing quality, but there is no question that if you averaged the quality of infrastructure in LL it would exceed that in the Juniors. That's been a natural process of establishing LL - grounds in EOSL and SOSL with no cover, no railings or boundary fences, and so on have stopped their clubs ascending to LL.

[jimbaxters]

1 minute ago, Quantum Leap said:

Beith beat one in this years Scottish.
Do these stats help you JB?

Are they accurate? I'll wait and read the proper ones.

[jimbaxters]

2 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

That's simply a falsehood.

LL clubs have to be licensed and this requires the grounds to be enclosed. Most of them have floodlights and all of them have seated stands except one (at Vale of Leithen there is only an enclosure). They all have to provide proper toilets - including disabled toilets - paved access and so on. There is a very legitimate argument over playing quality, but there is no question that if you averaged the quality of infrastructure in LL it would exceed that in the Juniors. That's been a natural process of establishing LL - grounds in EOSL and SOSL with no cover, no railings or boundary fences, and so on have stopped their clubs ascending to LL.

That was my impression. These facts alone makes them better than 99% of Junior grounds

[jimbaxters]

6 minutes ago, Quantum Leap said:

The team at the top has a ground capacity of 650.
I think we have pumped 1 and lost 1.

this

[jimbaxters]

1 minute ago, Quantum Leap said:

 

This
BSC 2 Talbot2
Talbot 5 BSC 0
Cumbernauld Colts 2 Talbot 0
Edinburgh City 2 Talbot 1
Beith 1 BSC 0

These are the ones that I'm sure off.

 

Thanks. They're slightly ahead then....and remember they're only playing the top sides. Facts are there pal.

[Dr V]

The plusses the LL league have over the juniors is the facilities are at a certain standard and they are much more organised regarding fixtures. The junior season is too long for the successful clubs and probably too short for the less successful clubs. Get that sorted , whether that means that clubs in the super league require lights etc well that should be put in place with a realistic timetable to achieve it so we can have a season that fits in with the rest of Scottish football

[Burnie_man]

To go back to the original point, this is the 10^th season of Junior clubs being in the Scottish Cup and it’s been a great success.

 

Irvine Meadow and Auchineck Talbot have played both Edinburgh clubs and put up a very good account of themselves, Linlithgow Rose have reached the last 16 and pushed Ross County away from home. They got over 1600 through the turnstiles for a midweek replay against Wick Academy, and have had 2k gates against Forfar (which was double what Forfar managed to get in the replay) and Raith, and four figure gates against the giants of Dalbeattie Star.  Bonnyrigg held Dumbarton with 1500+ present. Beith pushed Airdrie very hard and maybe should have beaten them, and again got big crowds through the turnstiles.

 

A bad result against Morton doesn’t change any of that, and of course Junior clubs should be in the Scottish, in fact a lot more should be.  The interest generated and crowds through the gate show that they have a lot to bring to the competition. How many Lowland (or Highland) League clubs would attract four figure crowds for games against opposition out with the Premiership? Not many.

 

As for the LL itself, out with a couple of clubs it does seem to be struggling to significantly increase interest as far as paying fans are concerned. It’s flawed, and until someone at the SFA is big enough to admit that, we’ll never have a true pyramid.

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, Quantum Leap said:

The LL is a disaster in its current form

 

What do you base that on? Please elaborate.

Since its inception - with 3 licensed clubs - it's expanded from 12 to 16 and got all of them licensed... It's been given 1 slot in the SPFL League Cup and 4 slots in the SPFL Challenge Cup... All members of its U-20s Development League, including non-SFA member participants from the EOSL & SOSL, receive slots to play in the Scottish Youth Cup... Its champion club was promoted to SPFL2 last season through the pyramid playoffs... Spartans and East Kilbride have reached the Last 16 of the Scottish Cup, and various LL teams have beaten SPFL opponents and champion Juniors... It's signed sponsorship deals with the Scottish Sun and Ferrara Packaging... it's even hosted 2 groundhop events (why hasn't the Juniors?).

You may argue the structure is wrong - but that doesn't make the structure "a disaster". Crowds are modest compared to the cream of the Juniors - but that doesn't make it "a disaster", and none have declined AFAIA. What has gone "disastrously"?

[HibeeJibee]

6 minutes ago, Quantum Leap said:

Talbot 3 Vale of Leithen 1

 

 

That was at least a couple of years before LL began. If you're taking results before LL then you also get Edinburgh Uni taking Hurlford to a replay, Spartans beating Pollok, Edinburgh City beating Shotts and so on as well as various Juniors beating Selkirk, Linlithgow beating Dalbeattie and so on.


As an Irvine Meadow fan notes above it's a difficult measure anyway because it's only champion Juniors - plus Linlithgow in recent seasons - against the entire spectrum of LL, top-to-bottom.

How would EK or Spartans fare v Fauldhouse or Largs.

[Talbot Bing]

Unless you're expecting them to suffer a double relegation to the EOS League, or quit Senior football for some reason, that's impossible.

Hibbyjibbery I am referring to the qualifying stages of the Senior scottish cup. The stages where we meet the LL teams. Cmon man stay onboard [emoji23]

[Talbot Bing]

Thanks. They're slightly ahead then....and remember they're only playing the top sides. Facts are there pal.

I think this JB used to be a Talbot man but his views appear to be misguided nowadays. Think i know who you are now lol. You got a sister who used to be a model in her day by chance [emoji38][emoji38]?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, jimbaxters said:

C'mon now. Are we actually saying that the Junior Grade is a "big pond"? 

Ignoring these few dafty senior supporters let's be completely honest here. We love the Juniors with a passion. I know you, Isa and I know how you've helped our club over the years but that shouldn't kid us into thinking we are what we aren't. The reality is that, apart from the Hearts year, we have made no inroads whatsoever into giving the SPFL sides a "riddy". Talbot are the pinnacle of Junior football and they will never be surpassed in terms of success but that doesn't make us any better than we are. Which is what I meant by big fish in small pond.

That said the Juniors as a grade is shoddily run and there are up to 10 clubs imo who have outgrown it. Your solution sounds a good one then we may get nearer the standard to progress in the big cup.  

Jimbaxters, and a fine establishment it was too. I'm not suggesting Junior Football is a big pond, it certainly isn't. Are Talbot a big fish within the pond of Junior Football? Probably the biggest. However. I think it's incredibly unfair to suggest that they have no ambition for not showing interest in the current pyramid which is only paying lip service to the concept. The LL would not have worked for them as it stands. Now, if the vitriol being projected about from some senior grade supporters and the retorts were to subside there is a serious and interesting debate. Why people are comparing the championship to Juniors I have no idea. The Championship would be to all intent the second senior division I proposed, and is more or less populated by the teams who should be there and have legitimate Senior status. It is the majority of the clubs below that level who could, along with some of the bigger Junior clubs and good LL clubs make for a very exciting non league. All the talk of LL facilities being better, this is one area where the forced fabrication of the LL comes to the fore. Cumbernauld Colts play out of Broadwood, can anyone explain how a club who's crowd consists of mums, dads and relations of the players can sustain the upkeep of that? Some sort of subsidy arrangement must be in place, but can I ask should these clubs not be self generating going concerns? BSC played at Maryhill last year which had a restricted capacity due to poor repair, they have moved and appear to be nomads with the usual mums dads etc as a support. Edinburgh City play at Meadowbank, a soulless bowl like some remnant from Stalingrad, possibly the worst venue I have ever seen Talbot play in. Again, no support, how can they pay the rent? My point is that because the SFA wanted a pyramid in place they fabricated and massaged clubs to populate a league that has no real natural platform. Attendances? No one is claiming that all but the top Junior clubs get great attendances, but it is those top clubs who would be at the top end of my non league set up, enhancing it, along with the likes of Stirling Albion. To sum up JB, I'm not kidding we are what we aren't, joining the forced LL would surely have been the perfect example of kidding ourselves on.

[1320Lichtie]

Edinburgh city have been getting crowds of about 500.

[Burnie_man]

Let’s not forget either that if Talbot or Linlithgow or any other Juniors want to have a stab at the LL, they would currently have to endure at least one season in the SoSFL or the EoSFL. Is that ever likely to happen?

[Sunrise]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

To go back to the original point, this is the 10^th season of Junior clubs being in the Scottish Cup and it’s been a great success.

 

Irvine Meadow and Auchineck Talbot have played both Edinburgh clubs and put up a very good account of themselves, Linlithgow Rose have reached the last 16 and pushed Ross County away from home. They got over 1600 through the turnstiles for a midweek replay against Wick Academy, and have had 2k gates against Forfar (which was double what Forfar managed to get in the replay) and Raith, and four figure gates against the giants of Dalbeattie Star.  Bonnyrigg held Dumbarton with 1500+ present. Beith pushed Airdrie very hard and maybe should have beaten them, and again got big crowds through the turnstiles.

 

A bad result against Morton doesn’t change any of that, and of course Junior clubs should be in the Scottish, in fact a lot more should be.  The interest generated and crowds through the gate show that they have a lot to bring to the competition. How many Lowland (or Highland) League clubs would attract four figure crowds for games against opposition out with the Premiership? Not many.

 

As for the LL itself, out with a couple of clubs it does seem to be struggling to significantly increase interest as far as paying fans are concerned. It’s flawed, and until someone at the SFA is big enough to admit that, we’ll never have a true pyramid.

I have a lot of time for the Highland and Lowland Leagues and think we juniors need to take quite a few pointers fae them - but how many serious candidates are there to join them in the future? (Yes, I'm aware LL is full in its current form) Lowland has LTHV, Leith, maybe Lithgae, Wigtown and St Cuthbert's maybe? Clydebank a few years down the road realistically. Burntisland, Glasgow Uni etc I know have mooted in the past but can't see them now. Highland has Banks o' Dee, Halkirk... Golspie? Plus, only a small group of sides are likely to win either league in the near future?

Think one of the points the anti-junior crowd miss/ignore is the pyramid is hardly suffering from queues of clubs wanting to join at the moment - with movement the other way in the EOS - that's without the usual crowd bigger than yours patter.

[Burnie_man]

The EoSFL has serious issues, Easthouses and Craigroyston have already left for the Juniors, and I can see at least one other club following suit next season.

 

LTHV/Tynecastle are taking steps to have Saughton Enclosure licenced, whilst on the face of it Leith Athletic won’t be in the short to medium term unless they groundshare, but they may all be faced with an imploding set-up before they have the chance to make the step-up to the LL.  Burntisland, barring major investment on the playing side, won’t be challenging for the title anytime soon and probably not Coldstream either.

[tommyboy]

36 minutes ago, Talbot Bing said:

 

I think this JB used to be a Talbot man but his views appear to be misguided nowadays. Think i know who you are now lol. You got a sister who used to be a model in her day by chance ?

 

Would that be the Auchinleck lassie who was intae modelling but chucked it jist after the wings fell aff her glider,TB? 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Edinburgh city have been getting crowds of about 500.

Well, paper really does take on anything! Talbot played them in the Scottish, take a zero off and you will be closer to the amount of home interest. They never had one single fan in their social club prior to the game. Where on earth have these 450 materialized? I'm beginning to think these official attendance figures are about a fabricated as the LL. Sorry but I just don't believe that.