What a nice country

[McSpreader]

11 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

Stop trying to impose ethnic terms on those who rejected them and fully identified themselves as British, chump. 

You don't know how they identified themselves because they've been dead for centuries.

Are you saying People who see the political  Union with rUK as the best  and most preferable current option available to them for their prosperity and security  are not Scottish?

Because if you are saying that then you are a complete and utter c*nt.

[vikingTON]

Yes because it's not as if dead, rich people leave behind written documents. It's a wonder how the discipline of history works at all tbh.

Back in your box.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No doubt you will be able to give us a long list of clearances perpetrated by Cameron of Locheil after the 45.

In 1780s he  began clearing his family lands which stretched from Loch Leven to Loch Arkaig.

That's not to deny that (as Vikington implies) there was political impetus behind the clearances. But equally, I think there were also a range of economic, social, technological, environmental and competitive factors at work with unfettered capitalism and greed being the driving force.

[invergowrie arab]

34 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

In 1780s he  began clearing his family lands which stretched from Loch Leven to Loch Arkaig.

That's not to deny that (as Vikington implies) there was political impetus behind the clearances. But equally, I think there were also a range of economic, social, technological, environmental and competitive factors at work with unfettered capitalism and greed being the driving force.
 

 

Cameron of Locheil who fought on the Jacobite side was stripped of his land immediately after the 45 and died in exile in France soon after.

His 15 year old grandson the 22nd Locheil had the land returned in 1782 after which the clearances started.

The grandson having met the conditions of having been educated in England and now fully part of the British establishment.

I wouldn't deny there were economic factors behind the clearances, or pure greed, but that was driven by a Co-opting of Gaelic culture into the British state and the necessary re education and assimilation of the chiefs into good brits.

By the time the 22nd Locheil came along and into the second wave of clearances of the mid 19th century the chiefs were of course willing participants in capitalism.

To be fair it was an extremely successful mixture of blackmail, cultural appropriation, bribery and corruption which persists to this day in our patterns of land ownership, local democracy, whole society attitude to Gaelic and our inexplicable pride in getting dressed up in a kilt to play the white Gurkha for British imperialism.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Cameron of Locheil who fought on the Jacobite side was stripped of his land immediately after the 45 and died in exile in France soon after.

His 15 year old grandson the 22nd Locheil had the land returned in 1782 after which the clearances started.

The grandson having met the conditions of having been educated in England and now fully part of the British establishment.

I wouldn't deny there were economic factors behind the clearances, or pure greed, but that was driven by a Co-opting of Gaelic culture into the British state and the necessary re education and assimilation of the chiefs into good brits.

By the time the 22nd Locheil came along and into the second wave of clearances of the mid 19th century the chiefs were of course willing participants in capitalism.

To be fair it was an extremely successful mixture of blackmail, cultural appropriation, bribery and corruption which persists to this day in our patterns of land ownership, local democracy, whole society attitude to Gaelic and our inexplicable pride in getting dressed up in a kilt to play the white Gurkha for British imperialism.

Divide and rule.

Highlander vs Lowlander

Presbyterian vs Catholic

Fairly standard practices by the rulling elite.

Oh hands up regards the Cameron thing but I did read somewhere that he did move people off the land some time in the 1730s - not on the scale that happened in the later part of the century.

Whatever may have happened earlier was dwarfed by the betrayal of what were nominally Scottish clan chiefs by the early 1800s. It was not just anglification either - life in Edinburgh and Paris persuaded many that they could make more profit out of sheep than crofters.

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Divide and rule.

Presbyterian vs Catholic

This is, typically, crassly ignorant and makes no account for the 'definitely not Catholic' Episcopalians - which most Jacobites were.  Still, given the level of education in Scotland I guess we have to accept this dross.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

This is, typically, crassly ignorant and makes no account for the 'definitely not Catholic' Episcopalians - which most Jacobites were.  Still, given the level of education in Scotland I guess we have to accept this dross.

Are you denying there were Catholics in the Jacobite ranks?

The MacDonnels/MacDonalds of Clanranald, Keppoch, Glengarry and Glencoe?

Clan Chisholm?

The Ogilvys?

The point I was making was about divisions - I could easily have added to that list.

PS Episcopalians would describe themselves as Catholic and Reformed.

[Tony Ferrino]

On 16/11/2016 at 15:07, Peppino Impastato said:

Makes you proud to be British

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38003791

Poor Tarzans.

[invergowrie arab]

3 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Divide and rule.

Highlander vs Lowlander

Presbyterian vs Catholic

Fairly standard practices by the rulling elite.

Oh hands up regards the Cameron thing but I did read somewhere that he did move people off the land some time in the 1730s - not on the scale that happened in the later part of the century.

Whatever may have happened earlier was dwarfed by the betrayal of what were nominally Scottish clan chiefs by the early 1800s. It was not just anglification either - life in Edinburgh and Paris persuaded many that they could make more profit out of sheep than crofters.

Not even just sheep. My 3x great grandmother was cleared from Knoydart because MacDonell of Glengarry might have had to make a contribution to the Poor Relief fund for them. They were already on the coast and no impediment to sheep farming.

Mid 19th century Sutherland gets all the press but people were still being cleared all the over the Highlands well into the 20th century, especially between the wars.

If anyone is interested Callum's Road is a great book and touches upon it.  There were land raids on Raasay as late as the 1940s.

[Peppino Impastato]

Scotland has the most highly educated adult population in Europe.  Typical britnat just desperate to denigrate Scotland.  Unionism really is a mental illness. It's like Scotland has to be shite in order to justify wanting to be part of the UK.  

Anything good about Scotland has to be talked down,  derided and dismissed,  anything overtly Scottish like gaelic signs or the saltire on public buildings has   to be resisted and minimised.  It genuinely is some sort of condition that should be studied by psychologists. 

[Peppino Impastato]

Also typical britnat tarzan comment racist cultural superiority complex.   Our nationalism is the benign type yours is the ugly dangerous type.