The Official Former President Trump thread

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Who do you think is fighting against them, and have you picked a side?

Ethnic Russians from Ukraine and Russia. How dare they defend themselves from neo-Nazis.

My position is pretty straightforward. There should have been more elections. Once the coup was complete the country should have been allowed to split. The neocons (Clinton, Nuland, Kagan etc) who engineered this condemned millions of people to misery in a civil war and harassment from neo Nazis intent on ethnic cleansing. It is part of a series of right wing coups engineered from Washington which get soft media coverage - Thailand, Brazil, Honduras, Egypt. Democracy is apparently only a good thing when the people vote the correct way.

 

[Jambo: First Blood]

20 minutes ago, Detournement said:

All nonsense. Right wing paramilitaries were the main drivers of the coup assisted by the US state department. Victoria Nuland was caught on tape giving the game away. Fascist groups are fighting for the Ukranian government in the East.

Even the BBC ended up acknowledging that the snipers were basically a false flag https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31359021 

How is it nonsense? You addressed nothing I actually said.

Right wing paramilitaries were not the main drivers of the protests. Yes they were far-right people involved in the protests but they were a small minority and there is no evidence to suggest they were more than that.

The Obama administration refused to give heavy weaponry to the Ukrainian army after the Russian invasion of Crimea. The idea that this was manufactured is absurd on that basis. Were all of the thousands and thousands of people who occupied the square and engaged in the protests paid by the state department? Nonsense.

Did you even read the article you posted? It was not even close to admitting it was a false flag but talked about the theories of the perps from both sides. The only people arrested were part of the Yanukovich police.

There are also far-right people and Russian fascists fighting on the side of the Russians. Nick Griffin has backed the Russians on this subject. The fighting now is done overwhelming by the official Ukrainian army.

In Crimea there have been overhead pictures taken of mass gravesites dug by the Russians to put their fallen soldiers. Russia, at least outwardly, is still trying to maintain the pretense that it's only pro-Russian rebels fighting rather than actual Russian soldiers. Russian soldiers who volunteer also volunteer to give up their right to a funeral or family notice. They buried in numbered graves only.

What is your definition of a coup? How can a mass popular movement be a coup? Was that fall of Ceaușescu also the result of a coup?

[Jambo: First Blood]

6 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Ethnic Russians from Ukraine and Russia. How dare they defend themselves from neo-Nazis.

My position is pretty straightforward. There should have been more elections. Once the coup was complete the country should have been allowed to split. The neocons (Clinton, Nuland, Kagan etc) who engineered this condemned millions of people to misery in a civil war and harassment from neo Nazis intent on ethnic cleansing. It is part of a series of right wing coups engineered from Washington which get soft media coverage - Thailand, Brazil, Honduras, Egypt. Democracy is apparently only a good thing when the people vote the correct way.

If Ukraine is ruled by "neo-nazis" why did far-right groups only get a small percentage of the vote?

Odessa is Russian speaking in the main and the people there want to remain part of Ukraine. The idea that all Russian speakers belong under Russian rule is not dissimilar to Hitler's idea of incorporating German speakers into the Reich.

There is no "ethnic cleansing" in Ukraine. In Ukraine Russian language schools remain open. All Ukrainian language schools have been closed in Crimea and many Tartar ones too (the original plurality population before ethnic cleansing and genocide committed by the USSR). You've clearly been reading too many sites that push the Kremlin line.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Ethnic Russians from Ukraine and Russia. How dare they defend themselves from neo-Nazis.

My position is pretty straightforward. There should have been more elections. Once the coup was complete the country should have been allowed to split. The neocons (Clinton, Nuland, Kagan etc) who engineered this condemned millions of people to misery in a civil war and harassment from neo Nazis intent on ethnic cleansing. It is part of a series of right wing coups engineered from Washington which get soft media coverage - Thailand, Brazil, Honduras, Egypt. Democracy is apparently only a good thing when the people vote the correct way.

 

Out of interest, do you also think Srebrenica never happened and that Vanessa Beeley is a reliable source on Syria?

[Detournement]

Right Sector have been integrated into the Ukrainian Army.

It has been proven that the snipers were pro Maidan. No one denies this. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ukraine-kiev-snipers-reportedly-hired-by-opposition-leaders-not-yanukovich-according-to-bugged-call-9171328.html

Obama not giving them weapons doesn't mean he didn't support the coup, just that he was at least humane enough not to want to escalate the situation in the Donbass.

It was 100% a coup. Nuland is on tape discussing her pick for Ukrainian PM, CIA stooges rolled into the country immediately to take up important positions. Elections were working in Ukraine and power had been transferred between the two main factions twice therefore there is no comparison to Romania.

If it involves right wing paramilitaries, neo nazis, the US state department it's a coup. The 12.5 million Ukrainians who voted for the Party of The Regions were completely disenfranchised.

 

 

[Detournement]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Out of interest, do you also think Srebrenica never happened and that Vanessa Beeley is a reliable source on Syria?

I don't have a clue about Srebrenica. Vannesa Beeley  is a good journalist.

[pandarilla]

The Ukraine coup was not just a nice, polite 'democratic' uprising.

There are some nasty forces at work over there.

Putin is a lying b*****d, and being suspicious of the actions of those in charge of Ukraine does not mean you have to be a russia-loving muppet.

[Jambo: First Blood]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Vannesa Beeley  is a good journalist.

Jesus Christ 

She's a propagandist for Assad who has went on tours to Syria accompanied and paid for by Assad cronies.

She's admitted in messages to covering up the use of torture by the SAA as it doesn't suit her agenda. She's admitted it was quite widespread which it clearly was and is.

Oh yeah and she's also said that "France is ruled by Zionists" so an anti-Semite into the bargain.

[Detournement]

15 minutes ago, Jambo: First Blood said:

If Ukraine is ruled by "neo-nazis" why did far-right groups only get a small percentage of the vote?

Odessa is Russian speaking in the main and the people there want to remain part of Ukraine. The idea that all Russian speakers belong under Russian rule is not dissimilar to Hitler's idea of incorporating German speakers into the Reich.

There is no "ethnic cleansing" in Ukraine. In Ukraine Russian language schools remain open. All Ukrainian language schools have been closed in Crimea and many Tartar ones too (the original plurality population before ethnic cleansing and genocide committed by the USSR). You've clearly been reading too many sites that push the Kremlin line.

They don't need the Neo Nazis in parliament. Just out on the street killing people.

Odessa the city where right wing paramilitaries burnt a building full of trade unionists  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire

Quote

More than 30 people were killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukraine activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia.

 

[Detournement]

Why would the alternative media report on SAA torture? (i) It's already reported by MSM (ii) It simply puts Syria in a club with every other country which has faced an existential threat.

Syria is the same as Ukraine. There did not need to be a war. Millions of people have suffered because of this and our media continually distrorts  how the war began and how it has managed to last longer than World War 2. Assad is obviously a reprehensible dictator but the evidence is clear that a large proportion of the Syrian people have stuck with him, that government held areas are safe and that the horror stories about Ghouta and Aleppo don't stand up to scrutiny while Mosul and Raqqa are in complete ruins.

[welshbairn]

23 minutes ago, Jambo: First Blood said:

Jesus Christ 

She's a propagandist for Assad who has went on tours to Syria accompanied and paid for by Assad cronies.

She's admitted in messages to covering up the use of torture by the SAA as it doesn't suit her agenda. She's admitted it was quite widespread which it clearly was and is.

Oh yeah and she's also said that "France is ruled by Zionists" so an anti-Semite into the bargain.

And that 9/11 was an inside job and the Charlie Hebdo murders were a staged false flag op. A good journalist. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by welshbairn

[Detournement]

Any quotes for that? "Vanessa Beeley 9/11" doesn't turn up anything. 

This article comes up for Charlie Hedbo https://thewallwillfall.org/2015/09/14/charlie-hebdo-incitement-to-war/

It doesn't say that the Charlie Hedbo attack was staged. It says that Charlie Hedbo is funded to stir up racial hate (like the Daily Mail, Fox News and the Spectator).

 

[welshbairn]

21 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Any quotes for that? "Vanessa Beeley 9/11" doesn't turn up anything. 

This article comes up for Charlie Hedbo https://thewallwillfall.org/2015/09/14/charlie-hebdo-incitement-to-war/

It doesn't say that the Charlie Hedbo attack was staged. It says that Charlie Hedbo is funded to stir up racial hate (like the Daily Mail, Fox News and the Spectator).

 

Only from the MSM so far, will try harder.

Quote

Vanessa Beeley is a British blogger who has fuelled a bunch of conspiracy theories suggesting 9/11 was an inside job and the Charlie Hebdo attacks were staged.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/a-group-of-online-activists-are-claiming-syrias-chemical-attacks-were-staged/news-story/34546a60dbde0b847bc785010f4b4672

Quote

“These leaked documents offer cast-iron proof that the Russian government is doing what it can to elevate Vanessa Beeley as a key player in its propaganda campaign,” said James Sadri, executive director of the Syria Campaign. “A blogger for a 9/11 truther website who only visited Syria for the first time last year should not be taken seriously as an impartial expert on the conflict.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories

[Detournement]

So just second hand smears by pro war outlets?

That Olivia Solon article is one of the most things absurd things ever published.

 

[Jambo: First Blood]

55 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Any quotes for that? "Vanessa Beeley 9/11" doesn't turn up anything. 

This article comes up for Charlie Hedbo https://thewallwillfall.org/2015/09/14/charlie-hebdo-incitement-to-war/

It doesn't say that the Charlie Hedbo attack was staged. It says that Charlie Hedbo is funded to stir up racial hate (like the Daily Mail, Fox News and the Spectator).

She is listed as Associate Editor of a conspiracist website 21st Century Wire that has pushed both 9/11 false flag and Sandy Hook hoax conspiracy theories.

Sources: 

Associate Editor: 

https://21stcenturywire.com/about/#21WIRETEAM

9/11: https://21stcenturywire.com/2016/09/10/out-in-the-open-911-15-years-of-a-transparent-lie/

Sandy Hook:

https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/21/sandy-hook-game-changer-solid-new-evidence-of-a-cover-up-presented/

Regarding her own writings she authored this article that hints and slyly suggests but doesn't commit to the idea that the Nice attack was a false flag:

https://21stcenturywire.com/2016/07/15/nice-attacks-trigger-for-civil-war-in-france-and-military-escalation-in-syria/

Here is an excerpt from the article so you can see her mindset:

Attempts to reconcile with Russia and lift the sanctions have been blocked by Hollande and Valls, who are puppets of the Jewish Lobby. The Zionists want to continue the war on Syria, Iran and Russia. The Zionists have full control over US/NATO policy. Therefore, the ‘war on terror’, which was created as a pretext to further Zionist geopolitical interests, must be continued.

Also notice this tweet where she puts Islamist in quotation marks potentially suggesting false flag? That is about Hebdo:

 

This is all primary source material.

[dorlomin]

 

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

Vannesa Beeley  is a good journalist.

Wow.

Just wow. 

[Jambo: First Blood]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

Why would the alternative media report on SAA torture? (i) It's already reported by MSM (ii) It simply puts Syria in a club with every other country which has faced an existential threat.

Beeley does not only write for the "alternative media" but has been featured frequently on RT and Sputnik which can't be considered independent in the slightest.

That's also not how journalism is supposed to be. You don't go to a country, supposedly to find the truth, then totally ignore anything that goes against your narrative. 

The "MSM" has reported on Assad's use of torture yes. However there are huge numbers of people tortured who were will never hear from or have their story told. A real journalist would tell that story of what they observed. 

Syria is already a country that faces an "existential threat" as they've had millions displaced, tens of thousands of civilian deaths and whole cities reduced to rubble. 

What you actually mean is that if more of the world knew about Assad's crimes that the government would be under existential threat also rather than being the threat to the Syrian people itself.

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

Syria is the same as Ukraine. There did not need to be a war. Millions of people have suffered because of this and our media continually distrorts  how the war began and how it has managed to last longer than World War 2. 

There did not need to be a war no. When Syrians were peacefully protesting in 2011 for more freedom and against corruption, the Assad regime and his secret police didn't need to start shooting protestors or arresting them in the middle of the night to be tortured.

Have a look at some interviews with FSA fighters. So many of them were men in the Syrian army who defected in 2011-2013 to the FSA after being commanded to shoot at their own people while they peacefully protested for a better life.

[Jambo: First Blood]

2 hours ago, pandarilla said:

The Ukraine coup was not just a nice, polite 'democratic' uprising.

There are some nasty forces at work over there.

Putin is a lying b*****d, and being suspicious of the actions of those in charge of Ukraine does not mean you have to be a russia-loving muppet.

Let me put it this way Panda:

Of the former Warsaw Treaty nations who did better after the Cold War? Was it countries like Estonia who looked Westward and entered the EU and NATO or countries such as Belarus and Ukraine who remained more under Russian influence?

By almost every relevant measure, say in terms of corruption, human rights and especially economically, it is obviously and clearly the countries who looked Westward!

Now we will have to see what happens with Ukraine as they have had huge economic issues however currently their economy is growing faster than Russia's.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Jambo: First Blood

[JamieThomas]

Whilst the Ukraine is fascinating, here's the Democrats standing firm and showing they really, really, really oppose Trump. Really.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/senate-democrats-trump-federal-judges_us_5b86c0eee4b0cf7b00313783?kn

[steve55]