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Amateur as good as Junior ??


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I think it's already beginning to happen - EK full of players who if they didn't exist would be playing Junior, and some at top level (Kieran Gibbons for example).

I think that could be applied to most of the teams at the top end of the Lowland league, East and West. Cumbernauld, East Stirling, Whitehill, Spartans etc all have players who otherwise would be playing (or came from) top end of the junior game.

Hardest thing for many of those LL clubs to overcome with players is the money available in the Juniors playing budgets. Despite what people think (EK and Shire left aside) there's not as much in the playing budgets in the LL, that's an area the juniors have the edge. The appeal is different though (Facilities, Fixture Lists, Night Games, Scottish Cup etc.), something different.

Bottom line, the LL do a lot of things right and so do the Juniors. Neither are 100% right or wrong, they are just "different". I don't see either going away any time soon and I don't see a merger unless there's a full restructure of the lower leagues (for East/West/Highland I think there needs to be at least two promotion spaces, one automatic, from the 3 regions, so a 10 team L2 doesn't work, would need 16-18).

It is hard not to say the LL is getting stronger year on year though, so in 10 years who knows where we will be.

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1 hour ago, gaz5 said:

I think that could be applied to most of the teams at the top end of the Lowland league, East and West. Cumbernauld, East Stirling, Whitehill, Spartans etc all have players who otherwise would be playing (or came from) top end of the junior game.

 

You're right but the West sides have not had a non-league competitor before.

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5 hours ago, hareskirky said:

The junior football has stood the test of time and it will continue to do so.

Love it and it won't shouldn't change for anything or anyone .

Nobody is saying it won't continue, they're saying it will diminish as the LL strengthens and cannibalises it. 

So it very much will change - into a lesser entity. 

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Just now, kilsyth ranger said:


That's you're opinion, who's to say the lowland league won't die on its arse?

Is there anything concrete to suggest that the LL is dying? If not then it's reasonable to suggest it's healthy. 

Right now it seems like Junior football will sit and do nothing to adapt to the changing football landscape. Always reactive, never proactive could be the collective motto. 

 

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10 minutes ago, kilsyth ranger said:


That's you're opinion, who's to say the lowland league won't die on its arse?

wishful thinking that, to be honest. You mention BSC Glasgow as a fly-by-night club...run by a very well connected indivdual with powerful friends in the SFA who are very, very keen to encourage a grassroots-run, community facing model. The work a club like BSC does coaching kids and having a family run ethos is much more important these days than having some fading photographs of a cup win at Tinto Park in the late 1950s, or a Ford Transit van's worth of fans.

Sure it's strange to have clubs in a league with few / no fans but don't forget the LL has only been in existence for a few seasons. I agree with others that the process will be very gradual. Many clubs at the level below the LL have, at present, no interest in taking part in it (see almost all the South of Scotland League bar Threave, in a rebuilidng phase, and Edusport. St. Cuthberts jockeyed paperwork to avoid promotion last season and Wigtown, who probably could compete at LL level, also seem not interested in doing so.)

For me the bigger problem is not how to integrate the pyramid below the SPFL but tempting the likelier candidates in, in the first place. All that slog and hard labour (licensing, facilities upgrade, community programmes, all of which are good things but take a lot of time, money and voluntary labour to accomplish meaningfully) to prepare the club for the dubious privelige of facing Montrose, Stirling Albion and Berwick Rangers four times a season? It's no surprise many junior teams utter a sarcastic "haud me back" faced with that prospect.

Senior football below championship level, non league senior and junior football need integrating over time. All this fiddling about defending old territories and small-mindedness (at all levels I might add) just rumbles on and on and on, as standards continue to slip at all levels, season after season. Trying to get folk to see a bigger picture is very difficult.

 

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16 minutes ago, Shanner said:

Is there anything concrete to suggest that the LL is dying? If not then it's reasonable to suggest it's healthy. 

Right now it seems like Junior football will sit and do nothing to adapt to the changing football landscape. Always reactive, never proactive could be the collective motto. 

 

Or the LL slowly suffocates due to little new blood coming into it from below with the EoS in dire straights and clubs withdrawing to go back to the SoS.

This tit-for-tat we're better than you nonsense gets us nowhere. The current LL set-up is not fit for purpose, whilst the SJFA are culpable of holding the Junior game back.  The Junior set-up is the perfect model to base the Pyramid on below the SPFL, whilst the LL clubs have gone out and obtained licences and made the most of the opportunity.

It's time some heads were knocked together.

 

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8 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

wishful thinking that, to be honest. You mention BSC Glasgow as a fly-by-night club...run by a very well connected indivdual with powerful friends in the SFA who are very, very keen to encourage a grassroots-run, community facing model. The work a club like BSC does coaching kids and having a family run ethos is much more important these days than having some fading photographs of a cup win at Tinto Park in the late 1950s, or a Ford Transit van's worth of fans.

Sure it's strange to have clubs in a league with few / no fans but don't forget the LL has only been in existence for a few seasons. I agree with others that the process will be very gradual. Many clubs at the level below the LL have, at present, no interest in taking part in it (see almost all the South of Scotland League bar Threave, in a rebuilidng phase, and Edusport. St. Cuthberts jockeyed paperwork to avoid promotion last season and Wigtown, who probably could compete at LL level, also seem not interested in doing so.)

For me the bigger problem is not how to integrate the pyramid below the SPFL but tempting the likelier candidates in, in the first place. All that slog and hard labour (licensing, facilities upgrade, community programmes, all of which are good things but take a lot of time, money and voluntary labour to accomplish meaningfully) to prepare the club for the dubious privelige of facing Montrose, Stirling Albion and Berwick Rangers four times a season? It's no surprise many junior teams utter a sarcastic "haud me back" faced with that prospect.

Senior football below championship level, non league senior and junior football need integrating over time. All this fiddling about defending old territories and small-mindedness (at all levels I might add) just rumbles on and on and on, as standards continue to slip at all levels, season after season. Trying to get folk to see a bigger picture is very difficult.

 

Is it correct to say that David moyes and his brother are very well connected to Glasgow BSC ? 

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wishful thinking that, to be honest. You mention BSC Glasgow as a fly-by-night club...run by a very well connected indivdual with powerful friends in the SFA who are very, very keen to encourage a grassroots-run, community facing model. The work a club like BSC does coaching kids and having a family run ethos is much more important these days than having some fading photographs of a cup win at Tinto Park in the late 1950s, or a Ford Transit van's worth of fans.

Sure it's strange to have clubs in a league with few / no fans but don't forget the LL has only been in existence for a few seasons. I agree with others that the process will be very gradual. Many clubs at the level below the LL have, at present, no interest in taking part in it (see almost all the South of Scotland League bar Threave, in a rebuilidng phase, and Edusport. St. Cuthberts jockeyed paperwork to avoid promotion last season and Wigtown, who probably could compete at LL level, also seem not interested in doing so.)

For me the bigger problem is not how to integrate the pyramid below the SPFL but tempting the likelier candidates in, in the first place. All that slog and hard labour (licensing, facilities upgrade, community programmes, all of which are good things but take a lot of time, money and voluntary labour to accomplish meaningfully) to prepare the club for the dubious privelige of facing Montrose, Stirling Albion and Berwick Rangers four times a season? It's no surprise many junior teams utter a sarcastic "haud me back" faced with that prospect.

Senior football below championship level, non league senior and junior football need integrating over time. All this fiddling about defending old territories and small-mindedness (at all levels I might add) just rumbles on and on and on, as standards continue to slip at all levels, season after season. Trying to get folk to see a bigger picture is very difficult.

 


Quiete sure a never said bsc Glasgow were a fly by night club? A did say it was a farce they were playing at alloa though
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10 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

wishful thinking that, to be honest. You mention BSC Glasgow as a fly-by-night club...run by a very well connected indivdual with powerful friends in the SFA who are very, very keen to encourage a grassroots-run, community facing model. The work a club like BSC does coaching kids and having a family run ethos is much more important these days than having some fading photographs of a cup win at Tinto Park in the late 1950s, or a Ford Transit van's worth of fans.

 

The overall BSC model is replicated by many Junior clubs, who also have the SFA Quality Mark and are part of wider community clubs.

It's easier to transition from the base of being a large successful youth club which decides to set-up an adult team at a hired ground, than it is to be a traditional stand alone adult team and work backwards setting-up youth structures pulling together individual youth teams in a community.

 

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17 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

For me the bigger problem is not how to integrate the pyramid below the SPFL but tempting the likelier candidates in, in the first place. All that slog and hard labour (licensing, facilities upgrade, community programmes, all of which are good things but take a lot of time, money and voluntary labour to accomplish meaningfully) to prepare the club for the dubious privelige of facing Montrose, Stirling Albion and Berwick Rangers four times a season? It's no surprise many junior teams utter a sarcastic "haud me back" faced with that prospect.

Senior football below championship level, non league senior and junior football need integrating over time. All this fiddling about defending old territories and small-mindedness (at all levels I might add) just rumbles on and on and on, as standards continue to slip at all levels, season after season. Trying to get folk to see a bigger picture is very difficult.

 

 

Agree with all of that.

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10 hours ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

wishful thinking that, to be honest. You mention BSC Glasgow as a fly-by-night club...run by a very well connected indivdual with powerful friends in the SFA who are very, very keen to encourage a grassroots-run, community facing model. The work a club like BSC does coaching kids and having a family run ethos is much more important these days than having some fading photographs of a cup win at Tinto Park in the late 1950s, or a Ford Transit van's worth of fans.

Sure it's strange to have clubs in a league with few / no fans but don't forget the LL has only been in existence for a few seasons. I agree with others that the process will be very gradual. Many clubs at the level below the LL have, at present, no interest in taking part in it (see almost all the South of Scotland League bar Threave, in a rebuilidng phase, and Edusport. St. Cuthberts jockeyed paperwork to avoid promotion last season and Wigtown, who probably could compete at LL level, also seem not interested in doing so.)

For me the bigger problem is not how to integrate the pyramid below the SPFL but tempting the likelier candidates in, in the first place. All that slog and hard labour (licensing, facilities upgrade, community programmes, all of which are good things but take a lot of time, money and voluntary labour to accomplish meaningfully) to prepare the club for the dubious privelige of facing Montrose, Stirling Albion and Berwick Rangers four times a season? It's no surprise many junior teams utter a sarcastic "haud me back" faced with that prospect.

Senior football below championship level, non league senior and junior football need integrating over time. All this fiddling about defending old territories and small-mindedness (at all levels I might add) just rumbles on and on and on, as standards continue to slip at all levels, season after season. Trying to get folk to see a bigger picture is very difficult.

 

 

I'd strongly disagree that Wigtown could compete at LL level, at least sustainably - it's a great set-up down there in many ways but they're at the right level. Support is limited and there's not much scope for growth. I'd say there was a finite number of teams from the SW that could play at that level without heavy subsidy. The increased travel costs for nothing other than league points is a decision clubs have to face: is it worth it? Prize money is non-existent outside of League 2 so all revenue has to be self-raised, bar the annual Scottish Cup fillip.

Queens, Annan and Stranraer generally don't use local players (though Annan have a couple in the first team pool - Black and Watson and QOS a couple as well) so the best in that area are spread around the likes of Dalbeattie, Saints etc... Gretna this year seem to have opted for Cumbria as a source of players.

 

 

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As far as I know BSC are run by Kenny Moyes (David's brother) and the BSC model has a lot of support within the SFA.

I'll be clear; as I said (in a rather tired state) last night I'd like to see a full and integrated pyramid below the level fo the Scottish championship incorporating all current levels down to interested amateurs. The theoretical progression from public park football to the professional national league set-up should be there. There is no reasonable "exception" rule based on geography IMO.

Moving a bit more back on topic I'd love to see a club like Oban Saints progress up the leagues; if the will, opportunity and pathway is there for them to follow. The trouble is at present that we are nowhere near finding that pathway and the tiny crack in the otherwise walled-off senior league offers a pace of change that is simply too slow for many and does not provide enough of an incentive to make the effort in the first case. For many of the top junior sides a crowd of 1500 for a local derby or around 350 for the visit of Albion Rovers is a no-brainer. Why would you make that step?

Moreover, as Edinburgh City are finding out, League Two is poor but still- at the moment- seemingly beyond the capabilities of the back-to-back Lowland League champions.

 

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I've been informed that the new committee at Linlithgow are looking to make the step to the Lowland League. They want to "progress in Scottish football rather than stick with the status quo" is what I've been told.

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A wee question about Lowland League and Highland League. If for talking sakes Spartans played Cove Rangers in play off and Cove won and then beat say Annan in the playoff final, does the highland league lose a team the next season and lowland league gain a team?

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10 minutes ago, LeeKRR1878 said:

A wee question about Lowland League and Highland League. If for talking sakes Spartans played Cove Rangers in play off and Cove won and then beat say Annan in the playoff final, does the highland league lose a team the next season and lowland league gain a team?

Yes.

The SFA have decided that any club that play north of the River Tay will be in the Highland League, and any below it in the Lowland League.

What happens if say Forfar were to drop out would be interesting - they might prefer to play LL as a number of their players are from south of the river. Is this boundary flexible?

 

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Bottom/2nd bottom (depending if a licenced team wins the EoS or SoS league) would be relegated from LL keeping the LL at 16 teams.

With no pathway to HL sorted up north I guess they'd run a team short tho they could ask for applications I suppose.

Similarly If the opposite was to happen (Spartans beating Elgin for example) then the HL would run with 19 teams as there's nowhere go relegate to and LL would either promote another licenced team (likely if they are champions but lost the play-off) or look for applications.

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33 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

As far as I know BSC are run by Kenny Moyes (David's brother) and the BSC model has a lot of support within the SFA.

I'll be clear; as I said (in a rather tired state) last night I'd like to see a full and integrated pyramid below the level fo the Scottish championship incorporating all current levels down to interested amateurs. The theoretical progression from public park football to the professional national league set-up should be there. There is no reasonable "exception" rule based on geography IMO.

Moving a bit more back on topic I'd love to see a club like Oban Saints progress up the leagues; if the will, opportunity and pathway is there for them to follow. The trouble is at present that we are nowhere near finding that pathway and the tiny crack in the otherwise walled-off senior league offers a pace of change that is simply too slow for many and does not provide enough of an incentive to make the effort in the first case. For many of the top junior sides a crowd of 1500 for a local derby or around 350 for the visit of Albion Rovers is a no-brainer. Why would you make that step?

Moreover, as Edinburgh City are finding out, League Two is poor but still- at the moment- seemingly beyond the capabilities of the back-to-back Lowland League champions.

 

I go and watch Saints on occasion and onfield they're there, but they'd need to think about the ground. Presently they use three or four pitches (afaik).

The usual one is Glengruitten 2, a naturally enclosed playing field which could be done up to be a cracking wee stadium but presently has no changing facilities at it. They also sometimes use Mossfield Stadium, round the corner from Glencruitten 2. It's the shinty park that is used for the pre-season tournament. It has a small seated stand but as it's a shinty pitch, the surface is massive (Fort William have a similar issue using a surface that can be used for shinty).

Very occasionally the Oban Lorne RFC pitches are used, e.g. for the pre-season tournament.

As a last resort in winter, they've been known to use the 4G at the High School too.

Saints would be a perfect for the LL but withour a permanent ground solution I can see why they've not gone for it and seem happy in the Amateurs.

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