Detournement Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: We need a common understanding of what homophobia is so that we can actually decide if what I'm claiming is true. Aye such as an insult based on sexuality is homophobic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Just now, Detournement said: If you insult someone by referencing their sexuality it's homophobic. Clearly it is hostile towards to Mundell snr it's nuts to say otherwise. I'm sure Campbell has made thousands of tweets that are hostile to Mundell that aren't homophobic but the content of this one is. But my whole point is that he didn't insult Mundell jnr directly by referencing his father's sexuality. You might think that's a subtle distinction (I'll be generous since subtlety of though doesn't seem to enter into any of your points) but I think it's an important one. Again, just stating that something's true isn't really an argument. The hostility of the tweet is very clearly aimed at Mundell jnr. I've no doubt Campbell is generally hostile towards Mundell snr, but as far as I've seen nothing he's written has demonstrated that hostility is based on his sexual orientation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Detournement said: Aye such as an insult based on sexuality is homophobic. Well yes. Which is exactly what I said in my previous post. The whole point of which is that the insult wasn't based on sexuality. It was based on Oliver Mundell being shit at public speaking and rather crassly referenced his father's sexuality. If you're unable or unwilling to even accept there's a difference there then I'm not sure what more anyone can say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Gordon EF said: Well yes. Which is exactly what I said in my previous post. The whole point of which is that the insult wasn't based on sexuality. It was based on Oliver Mundell being shit at public speaking and rather crassly referenced his father's sexuality. If you're unable or unwilling to even accept there's a difference there then I'm not sure what more anyone can say. The reference makes it homophobic. I don't understand why you can't get that. If Campbell was up in court for hate speech I would say that he shouldn't be charged but that's not the issue here. It's whether people in the gay community have the right to call out what they perceive as homophobia. Gay sex was illegal in Scotland until Mundell was 19. Any comment which mocks or questions the choices he made as young man is out of order. I would also argue that's possible to be homophobic towards the children of gay people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) I'd say basing an insult to somebody on the fact it recently turned out his Dad is gay is self evidently homophobic. Like saying someone should have been better at making money if he discovers his family was Jewish. Edited September 30, 2018 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 It wasn't a homophobic comment. Can we please move on 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Detournement said: The reference makes it homophobic. I don't understand why you can't get that. If Campbell was up in court for hate speech I would say that he shouldn't be charged but that's not the issue here. It's whether people in the gay community have the right to call out what they perceive as homophobia. Gay sex was illegal in Scotland until Mundell was 19. Any comment which mocks or questions the choices he made as young man is out of order. I would also argue that's possible to be homophobic towards the children of gay people. Because I think definitions matter. Without them we can all just make any claim we want and have the right for it to be legally held as true because we feel it is. Gay people or "the gay community" absolutely should have the right to call out what they perceive as homophobia. What absolutely cannot happen is for every accusation to be accepted as true without any degree of scrutiny. And to be honest, even if nothing else, I suppose things like this at least get people talking or thinking about these things in a more nuanced way than they might have done before. As I said, I'm willing to change my mind about this if the right argument is made. It's going to take a bit more than 'it just is mate' to do that though. Yep, that's actually a decent enough point. Personally I think Campbell's tweet was at best crass and at worst, out of order. For me though, it doesn't step over the line into homophobia. Yeah, I'd agree with your last point. Still don't see how it was homophobia though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: It wasn't a homophobic comment. Can we please move on OK Brett, have a keg of Pabst. Edited September 30, 2018 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I'd say basing an insult to somebody on the fact it recently turned out is Dad is gay is self evidently homophobic. Like saying someone should have been better at making money if he discovers his family was Jewish. Not really. Being greedy is widely regarded and accepted as being a negative stereotype of Jews that has historically been used to discriminate and persecute them. It's a simple logical conclusion that if David Mundell had been an open homosexual before his son was born, he wouldn't have been in a relationship with his mother and Oliver Mundell wouldn't have been born. To me there's no negative stereotyping, value judgements or insult based around that premise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 We'll agree to disagree then. I think is one of those things that in ten years time everyone will see that Dugdale is right. Attitudes can change quickly, it's only 18 years since the Brian Soutter referendum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Detournement said: We'll agree to disagree then. I think is one of those things that in ten years time everyone will see that Dugdale is right. Attitudes can change quickly, it's only 18 years since the Brian Soutter referendum. Fair enough. I think it's wrong to think that people are disagreeing with Dugdale/you because they're just not 'on board' enough with gay people or gay rights or all that stuff. And it's certainly not a variant in the 'f**k sake, you can't even call it a paki shop any more' type argument. But maybe you're right. Let's bookmark this and come back in 2028. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Agent Dugdales apparent mission to totally f@ck over the SLAB and all its sycophants is proceeding well Civil war brewed in the party between the two sides....the old style troughers and the shape shifting britnats. Can only be good for Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Agent Dugdales apparent mission to totally f@ck over the SLAB and all its sycophants is proceeding well8)[emoji38] Civil war brewed in the party between the two sides....the old style troughers and the shape shifting britnats. Can only be good for Scotland.f**k Labour. I hope they reach Lib Dem levels of pointlessness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 12 hours ago, welshbairn said: I'd say basing an insult to somebody on the fact it recently turned out his Dad is gay is self evidently homophobic. Like saying someone should have been better at making money if he discovers his family was Jewish. It's not the fact he's gay it's the fact that if he'd embraced his sexuality sooner, his son wouldn't have been born. Your Jewish example is a simple anti-semitic slur while it's simple biology that prevents homosexual men from having children. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: It's not the fact he's gay it's the fact that if he'd embraced his sexuality sooner, his son wouldn't have been born. Your Jewish example is a simple anti-semitic slur while it's simple biology that prevents homosexual men from having children. Most homosexual men are perfectly capable of having children. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 53 minutes ago, ICTChris said: Most homosexual men are perfectly capable of having children. Not with their partners. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Dugdale is a c**t, Mundell is a c**t; it’s hilarious that she’s fucked herself up trying to White Knight him. If it were a genuinely homophobic slur it would be a different matter. Oh, and Mundell’s son is a c**t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiG Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Wings v Dugdale is underway. Phillip Sim is live tweeting from court: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, RiG said: Wings v Dugdale is underway. Phillip Sim is live tweeting from court: Doesn't look good for him so far. Not sure what the level of proof needed is though. If she honestly believed the tweet to be homophobic even if it wasn't intended to be, would that clear her? Or if a reasonable person would think it was homophobic? Edited March 25, 2019 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiG Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 What a w****r (Wings that is). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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