Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Suspect Device]

13 hours ago, Dolf said:

I'd love to know where you Brexiteers got the notion that EFTA has an open door policy

You do realise that is also something you would have to apply to and could see your application vetoed by the mighty Liechtenstein who may not want to expand something that is working just fine for them the way it is

I never said they did have an open door policy, only it was my preferred option. We'd need independence first and I don't see that happening any time soon either.

Norwegian politicians say Scotland could only join EFTA if independent (holyrood.com)

 

At least the EU will be sending us aid. Which is nice of them. 

EU must be ready to send aid to Brexit Britain, says former PM of Finland (telegraph.co.uk)

[Detournement]

14 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

Just where are those thousands of poor Brits that were forced out of work because of immigrants willing to work for slave wages? They were poised to flood the fields of Britain last I heard.

The idea is that wages go up, conditions improve then British people take the jobs. 

[coprolite]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The idea is that wages go up, conditions improve then British people take the jobs. 

We now have a tarrif free trade in agricultural goods with the EU. So UK wages go up, uk prices go up and continental food becomes way more competitive so we import more from the EU. "British" jobs still go to low cost East Europeans, just in the EU and not in the UK. 

Experience suggests that most consumers won't buy british if it costs more. 

Maybe in the long term we'll find new niches, growing higher margin more perishable crops with more mechanisation. In the short term it will be the "destruction" part of capitalisms "creative destruction" 

I don't think this can happen in services so easily. 

[Billy Jean King]

The idea is that wages go up, conditions improve then British people take the jobs. 

Brits have ZERO interest in working in farm labouring, fruit and veg picking, food production lines like fish / chicken processing etc etc regardless of pay. Those sort of jobs have been "labelled" and demonized by the media for years all down to those that were filling the posts rather than the nature of the work. Those aren't seen as "British" jobs, it's cold, wet, dirty, repetitive work fit for "Johnny Foreigner". Pay alone will not see the unemployed of Britain fill those vacancies. Crass as it sounds the majority of the unemployed in the UK would rather remain getting less on Benefits than getting up at 5am to work in a field or chicken processing factory. The huge issue now is there is no Johnny Foreigner but hey that's great isn't it, that's exactly what they voted for without any consideration for the consequences.

[Detournement]

3 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

19 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The idea is that wages go up, conditions improve then British people take the jobs. 

Brits have ZERO interest in working in farm labouring, fruit and veg picking, food production lines like fish / chicken processing etc etc regardless of pay. Those sort of jobs have been "labelled" and demonized by the media for years all down to those that were filling the posts rather than the nature of the work. Those aren't seen as "British" jobs, it's cold, wet, dirty, repetitive work fit for "Johnny Foreigner". Pay alone will not see the unemployed of Britain fill those vacancies. Crass as it sounds the majority of the unemployed in the UK would rather remain getting less on Benefits than getting up at 5am to work in a field or chicken processing factory. The huge issue now is there is no Johnny Foreigner but hey that's great isn't it, that's exactly what they voted for without any consideration for the consequences.

People will do anything for the right money. 

[Billy Jean King]

People will do anything for the right money. 

I'm far from convinced that owners of these businesses can pay enough to entice Brits into these jobs. There is a pretty hard ceiling before costs make it unprofitable. Is the consumer willing to stomach a big jump in costs ?

The most likely outcome is the work moving to where the cheap labour is based ie where the previous workforce have returned to.

[Detournement]

7 minutes ago, coprolite said:

We now have a tarrif free trade in agricultural goods with the EU. So UK wages go up, uk prices go up and continental food becomes way more competitive so we import more from the EU. "British" jobs still go to low cost East Europeans, just in the EU and not in the UK. 

Experience suggests that most consumers won't buy british if it costs more. 

Maybe in the long term we'll find new niches, growing higher margin more perishable crops with more mechanisation. In the short term it will be the "destruction" part of capitalisms "creative destruction" 

I don't think this can happen in services so easily. 

I'm not so sure. The margins on vegetables are so small that extra transport would be as much of a cost as extra wages. 

It's also not like production on food can just magically ramp up in the EU. There isn't a huge amount of unused arable land. 

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

5 minutes ago, Detournement said:

People will do anything for the right money. 

I'm far from convinced that owners of these businesses can pay enough to entice Brits into these jobs. There is a pretty hard ceiling before costs make it unprofitable. Is the consumer willing to stomach a big jump in costs ?

Labour during production costs only make up a small proportion of the price of food so an increase in those wages won't lead to big increases at the till.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Detournement

[coprolite]

3 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I'm not so sure. The margins on vegetables are so small that extra transport would be as much of a cost as extra wages. 

It's also not like production on food can just magically ramp up in the EU. There isn't a huge amount of unused arable land. 

The amount of transport needed won't change from what it was before brexit (although the cost will but that will affect UK producers too). 

Production doesn't need to increase. They'd just sell to the highest bidder. 

[Detournement]

12 minutes ago, coprolite said:

The amount of transport needed won't change from what it was before brexit (although the cost will but that will affect UK producers too). 

Production doesn't need to increase. They'd just sell to the highest bidder. 

You are talking about production switching from the UK to the EU so that obviously leads to increased transport mileage.

There is zero chance of fields in the UK being left fallow to import  crops from Europe or beyond. Farmers may bluff for a year or two to try and try to force the government's hand on immigration but long term they need to produce. 

I don't think we are heading towards a golden age for agricultural workers but it should be an improvement on the EU era which was exploitative, cruel and completely unsustainable. Everyone who defends the 2015 status quo is very much telling on themselves. 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Detournement

[ICTJohnboy]

9 minutes ago, Dolf said:

 

One Trumpanzee farm owner complained that out of 600 that applied for work only two showed up

[coprolite]

On 07/10/2021 at 19:13, Suspect Device said:

I was reading about a possible factory in Wales. Here's hoping because ARM shows we have the talent but as usual it gets hoovered up by foreign companies.

 

Unlike a lot of folk I don't want the country to go to dogshit just so I can act smug.

 

Although (disclosure) I couldn't because I voted for Brexit. In my defence I wanted an independent Scotland with it's own currency and in the EFTA like Norway and thought it would be better to leave the political union and remain in the economic union.

I didn't think we'd be mental enough to stop freedom of movement and all the other good parts to do with the lack of trade barriers.

 

I was obviously wrong and as the first to admit I was a fucking idiot. Not for the first or last time in my life I guess

 

You're a very silly boy but you know what you've done and you seem sorry. 

This does illustrate an important point though. If i remember rightly about 40% of the pro brexit vote was for softer brexits, in the customs union and the likes. 

The biggest block of votes for any one type of relationships was for remain. 

There was not majority support for hard brexit but that's what we got because of tory internal politics. 

Still, unelected commissioners in Brussels eh? 

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 

There was not majority support for hard brexit but that's what we got because of tory internal politics. 

 

Don't forget the People's Vote geniuses. 

[coprolite]

18 minutes ago, Detournement said:

You are talking about production switching from the UK to the EU so that obviously leads to increased transport mileage.

Increased compared to what? If it costs 71 p to get a kilo of strawberries from a seed in spain to a shelf in the Uk and 70p for British production (in season), and 2p goes on the British cost, Spanish will be cheaper. 

There is zero chance of fields in the UK being left fallow to import  crops from Europe or beyond. Farmers may bluff for a year or two to try and try to force the government's hand on immigration but long term they need to produce. 

We're already culling pigs, emptying milk and letting unpicked crops rot in fields. 

If farming isn't economical it will stop. See-Scottish highlands

I don't think we are heading towards a golden age for agricultural workers but it should be an improvement on the EU era which was exploitative, cruel and completely unsustainable. Everyone who defends the 2015 status quo is very much telling on themselves. 

Sunlit uplands ahead

 

 

[Suspect Device]

6 minutes ago, coprolite said:

You're a very silly boy but you know what you've done and you seem sorry. 

This does illustrate an important point though. If i remember rightly about 40% of the pro brexit vote was for softer brexits, in the customs union and the likes. 

The biggest block of votes for any one type of relationships was for remain. 

There was not majority support for hard brexit but that's what we got because of tory internal politics. 

Still, unelected commissioners in Brussels eh? 

I wasn't convinced by either side and it wasn't until the very last minute that I chose (badly as it's turning out.) I'm not alone in voting for Brexit but not being a xenophobe and racist for doing it. I am a c**t though. As Stewart Lee told me when I went to see him at the Tivoli a while back.

Which is fair enough. I deserve the abuse. So many folk who voted Brexit now seem unwilling to admit they were wrong and are doubling down on it.

[Billy Jean King]

You are talking about production switching from the UK to the EU so that obviously leads to increased transport mileage.
There is zero chance of fields in the UK being left fallow to import  crops from Europe or beyond. Farmers may bluff for a year or two to try and try to force the government's hand on immigration but long term they need to produce. 
I don't think we are heading towards a golden age for agricultural workers but it should be an improvement on the EU era which was exploitative, cruel and completely unsustainable. Everyone who defends the 2015 status quo is very much telling on themselves. 
 

You are deluded. It's migrant workers or no workers in these industries. I'm interested to know how much you think they would need to raise wages to in order to fill all their vacancies with Brit workers ?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

You are talking about production switching from the UK to the EU so that obviously leads to increased transport mileage.
There is zero chance of fields in the UK being left fallow to import  crops from Europe or beyond. Farmers may bluff for a year or two to try and try to force the government's hand on immigration but long term they need to produce. 
I don't think we are heading towards a golden age for agricultural workers but it should be an improvement on the EU era which was exploitative, cruel and completely unsustainable. Everyone who defends the 2015 status quo is very much telling on themselves. 
 

What's happening right now is that crops are rotting in the fields because there's not enough farm workers to pick them. That's unsustainable.

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

 

What's happening right now is that crops are rotting in the fields because there's not enough farm workers to pick them. That's unsustainable.

 

Aye it's unsustainable so it won't happen for long. It's farmers trying to play the one card they have. They will either return to production or sell to someone who will. 

It's impossible for an economy to change in a significant way without disruption. Anyone who finds this level of disruption unpallatable is someone who is wants to keep the current disastrous system in place for as long at its entropic decline allows.

 

[welshbairn]

The aim isn't British jobs for British workers, it's full automation.

[bendan]