Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Bishop Briggs]

52 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Seems production is going back to Japan rather than to an EU country, the switch to electric was probably another reason on top of Brexit. 

And yet Nissan and Envision are  investing in building electric cars in Sunderland - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/03/sunderland-is-coming-up-shining-despite-brexit-and-the-pandemic

"Between the council and national government, £100m is being invested into a hi-tech manufacturing park adjacent to the Nissan plant, which before the announcement from the Japanese carmaker was expected to generate between £500m and £600m of investment from the private sector. With the £423m from Nissan and £450m from battery maker Envision, this target has already been smashed.

"The Brexit effect, which some Remainers had gleefully wished upon Leave-voting Sunderland, has failed to materialise here."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/01/nissan-sets-out-plans-for-1bn-electric-car-hub-in-sunderland?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

"Nissan has set out plans for a £1bn electric vehicle hub in Sunderland which the Japanese firm says will create 6,000 new jobs at the firm and among its suppliers, safeguarding the future of Britain’s largest car factory as motoring moves away from petrol and diesel."

Edited July 28, 2021 by Bishop Briggs

[coprolite]

16 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Wholeheartedly agree, but with mainly tariffless deals made with both the UK and the EU, and a full retooling on the cards for the switch to electric, and Brexit on top, it probably wasn't a hard decision to bring the jobs back home. I'd assume the shipping costs are fairly marginal. 

Agree it looks like bigger forces at play here but i doubt that brexit was quite as insignificant a factor as they’re presenting. Japanese corporate culture is still outwardly very polite and they wouldn't publicly blame the host government even if brexit was the only reason. 

"Tarrif free" depends how much of the value was added in the uk and what the fine detail of the deals look like in practice. 

There might not be enough UK stuff in the cars for them to count as UK goods on the way into the EU. Parts from the EU or Japan would also need tracked for rules of origin. 

Even if everything does qualify for zero tarrif there's a lot of extra work to do to make that so.  A lot less to do with 2 territories.  

That's just the cost side of the equation. On the benefit side we've removed the "within the EU market" factor. Although as you say the fairly recent Japan/EU deal might have meant that was unimportant anyway. 

 

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

And yet Nissan and Envision are  investing in building electric cars in Sunderland - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/03/sunderland-is-coming-up-shining-despite-brexit-and-the-pandemic

"Between the council and national government, £100m is being invested into a hi-tech manufacturing park adjacent to the Nissan plant, which before the announcement from the Japanese carmaker was expected to generate between £500m and £600m of investment from the private sector. With the £423m from Nissan and £450m from battery maker Envision, this target has already been smashed.

"The Brexit effect, which some Remainers had gleefully wished upon Leave-voting Sunderland, has failed to materialise here."

A £100 million bung, along with prioritising manufacturing in red wall constituencies over fishing and agriculture in EU negotiations, probably sweetened the deal somewhat.

[Bishop Briggs]

Just now, welshbairn said:

A £100 million bung, along with prioritising manufacturing in red wall constituencies over fishing and agriculture in EU negotiations, probably sweetened the deal somewhat.

So other countries don't offer "bungs"?

Keynesian economists would call that "bung" a strategic investment in new technology jobs.

I didn't realise that you are a neo-liberal, free market ideologue.

[welshbairn]

Just now, Bishop Briggs said:

So other countries don't offer "bungs"?

Keynesian economists would call that "bung" a strategic investment in new technology jobs.

I didn't realise that you are a neo-liberal, free market ideologue.

Yup, I'm a self proclaimed Centrist, who believes that free trade mitigated by countries getting together to agree minimum standards including workers rights, welfare rights for animals, quality levels etc was a great idea. Shame we're abandoning that to grovel to the Americans who just aren't that interested.

[Bishop Briggs]

43 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Yup, I'm a self proclaimed Centrist, who believes that free trade mitigated by countries getting together to agree minimum standards including workers rights, welfare rights for animals, quality levels etc was a great idea. Shame we're abandoning that to grovel to the Americans who just aren't that interested.

So you oppose all subsidies, including those by EU countries, in their domestic industries and manufacturing?

So you're not a Biden fan?

ETA - btw, Sunderland is still Labour and not part of Boris's blue wall.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Bishop Briggs

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Bishop Briggs said:

So you're not a Biden fan?

A massive improvement on his predecessor but no, not a big fan. He's not that relevant anyway, Congress will decide trade deals, and despite Brexit's big USP being dropping standards to undercut the EU, I don't think the British public will accept lowering them enough to satisfy them. Anyway, Biden's got bigger fish on his plate, like dealing with a globally significant union of 500 million people with loads of consumer Euros to spend.  

[Bishop Briggs]

8 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

A massive improvement on his predecessor but no, not a big fan. He's not that relevant anyway, Congress will decide trade deals, and despite Brexit's big USP being dropping standards to undercut the EU, I don't think the British public will accept lowering them enough to satisfy them. Anyway, Biden's got bigger fish on his plate, like dealing with a globally significant union of 500 million people with loads of consumer Euros to spend.  

A "Union" that sees itself as a trading competitor, rather than partner, of the US.

How much do the protectionist EU's Common External Tariffs cost the US and developing countries? They're much bigger than Trump's.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Bishop Briggs

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

A "Union" that sees itself as a trading competitor, rather than partner, of the US.

How much do the protectionist EU's Common External Tariffs cost the US and developing countries? They're much bigger than Trump's.

Quite, so his priority will be a deal with the EU to get those tariffs down, not selling artificial hormone and antibiotic stuffed meat to the UK, especially with all the Northern Ireland nonsense going on. 

[Bishop Briggs]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Quite, so his priority will be a deal with the EU to get those tariffs down, not selling artificial hormone and antibiotic stuffed meat to the UK, especially with all the Northern Ireland nonsense going on. 

You mean the awful stuff that is made and sold by corporate donors to the Democrats?

[welshbairn]

Just now, Bishop Briggs said:

You mean the awful stuff that is made and sold by corporate donors to the Democrats?

Eh? No, I mean the actual meat that is munched by red blooded Republicans and everyone else over there, the stuff that we still don't allow to be imported. Until we do there will be no trade deal.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

7 hours ago, pawpar said:

Honda workers in Swindon to face 'reality check' after it closes

Swindon EU vote - Leave 54.7% Remain 45.3%.  f**k them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-57987601

 

The Gammon will deny it has anything to do with Brexit. I don’t think anything will make them admit that Brexit was shite.

[strichener]

22 hours ago, speckled tangerine said:

Yeah. Irish/EU citizens need their letter/QR code proving double vaxxing.  They've been strict on the doors of establishments with this. Children don't need this if they are with indoor diners, but all adults need to leave contact details.

The weather has been glorious so we've remained outside. Grey area as to our Scottish Government letters would be accepted or not. One place said yes (hypothetically). Another said they wouldn't be sure.

 

Currently in Latvia and all hotels, spas, restaurants, museums etc. require proof of vaccination or negative test.  Scottish NHS letter is accepted everywhere I have been.  Only one place asked for ID to prove the letter was actually mine.

PS. Edinburgh could learn a thing or two about tram systems from over here.  Absolutely wonderful for getting around Riga and a 5 day pass for all public transport was €15.  Absolute bargain.

Edited July 29, 2021 by strichener

[strichener]

12 hours ago, coprolite said:

Agree it looks like bigger forces at play here but i doubt that brexit was quite as insignificant a factor as they’re presenting. Japanese corporate culture is still outwardly very polite and they wouldn't publicly blame the host government even if brexit was the only reason. 

"Tarrif free" depends how much of the value was added in the uk and what the fine detail of the deals look like in practice. 

There might not be enough UK stuff in the cars for them to count as UK goods on the way into the EU. Parts from the EU or Japan would also need tracked for rules of origin. 

Even if everything does qualify for zero tarrif there's a lot of extra work to do to make that so.  A lot less to do with 2 territories.  

That's just the cost side of the equation. On the benefit side we've removed the "within the EU market" factor. Although as you say the fairly recent Japan/EU deal might have meant that was unimportant anyway. 

 

They are closing their factory in Turkey too.  It certainly is the case that the UK plant has been running at 50% capacity for years and the closure was announced in 2019.  Meanwhile Honda's European operations continue to be headquartered in the UK

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by strichener

[Jacksgranda]

40 minutes ago, strichener said:

They are closing their factory in Turkey too.  It certainly is the case that the UK plant has been running at 50% capacity for years and the closure was announced in 2019.  Meanwhile Honda's European operations continue to be headquartered in the UK

 

Details.

[strichener]

14 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Details.

Apologies, should have posted -

Nowt to do with Brexit.  FACT.

[Michael W]

14 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Seems production is going back to Japan rather than to an EU country, the switch to electric was probably another reason on top of Brexit. 

EU-Japan FTA, UK-Japan FTA. 

There is simply no reason for them to be in the UK any more, unfortunately. 

Edit: and Turkey closing as well, seemingly. It has a Customs Union agreement with the EU. 

Slightly surprised they're taking it all back to Japan, can't really be many cost savings involved. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Michael W

[strichener]

7 minutes ago, Michael W said:

EU-Japan FTA, UK-Japan FTA. 

There is simply no reason for them to be in the UK any more, unfortunately. 

Edit: and Turkey closing as well, seemingly. It has a Customs Union agreement with the EU. 

Slightly surprised they're taking it all back to Japan, can't really be many cost savings involved. 

It isn't about cost savings.  It is about investment and Honda are making their electric investment in Japan as they see this as the most effective way of transitioning to electric from being the world's largest engine manufacturer, the majority of which are manufactured in Japan.  A previous announcement detailed the closure of an engine parts manufacturing plant and an assembly plant in Japan.

[BigDoddyKane]

You think after the logistics nightmare covid has caused for goods coming from China especially but all over as well. That companies are going to diversify their production more and not be so reliant on certain countries, areas or will it be business as usual in coming years?

 

Ive heard of a couple companies already making their production more localised where they can but I havent read anywhere if this is a trend or not

Edited July 29, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[coprolite]

6 hours ago, strichener said:

It isn't about cost savings.  It is about investment and Honda are making their electric investment in Japan as they see this as the most effective way of transitioning to electric from being the world's largest engine manufacturer, the majority of which are manufactured in Japan.  A previous announcement detailed the closure of an engine parts manufacturing plant and an assembly plant in Japan.

If it isn't about cost savings why close the plant? It's not stopping them investing. 

I think you've got yourself a false dichotomy there. 

Pedantry over, from what you've said about Japan and others about Turkey it does look likely that brexit is way down the list of contributory factors for the decision. Happy to accept well informed argument ahead of my idle speculation.