Detournement Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, Anonapersona said: But now you come across as against independence. You prefer long term toryism to anything EU. Yes? No? Tories can be voted out. EU commissioners can't. My position on independence changed as I learned more about economics and capital. The SNP plans for independence are a disaster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Detournement said: Tories can be voted out. EU commissioners can't. My position on independence changed as I learned more about economics and capital. The SNP plans for independence are a disaster. Sure the tories can be voted out. Just not by the Scots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 The SNP have got progressively worse as the years roll on and their independence vision is pretty shite but luckily for them and indy as a whole it’s always being outstripped by the gleeful embrace of disaster capitalism down south. Dunno how anyone can be arsed to defend the union after December, it’s never gonnae change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Detournement said: Tories can be voted out. EU commissioners can't. My position on independence changed as I learned more about economics and capital. The SNP plans for independence are a disaster. As are Cummings’ and his disaster capitalist Tory puppets. Yet you claim you’re “glad” that Brexit is happening. That must make you the only socialist in Little Britain who is. It seems remarkable that any socialist’s views would swing towards dependence on a far-right profit-first, asset-stripping Brexit. It’s almost like you’re not actually a socialist at all. Incidentally, there are plenty of powerful UK figures who can’t be voted out and will profit mightily from Cummings’ Brexit. It’s enough to warm Marx’s soul. “I’m glad Brexit is happening because, once the UK is sold off piece by piece by a party I don’t like, there might one day, hopefully, maybe be a socialist government” doesn’t sit all that well against “I don’t want Scotland to leave the UK because general elections won’t exist and a party I don’t like will rule forever”. Edited July 16, 2020 by Antlion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 8 hours ago, Detournement said: Tories can be voted out. EU commissioners can't. My position on independence changed as I learned more about economics and capital. The SNP plans for independence are a disaster. Please remind me exactly how I can vote out Baroness Mone, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, James Graham (the 8th Duke of Montrose), Baron Duncan of Springbank and Baroness Ruth of Tank Commander (after her forthcoming 'election' & coronation) And don't bother suggesting that Labour will abolish the Lords. They've spun that lie for long enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 H_B has jumped the shark now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 Please remind me exactly how I can vote out Baroness Mone, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, James Graham (the 8th Duke of Montrose), Baron Duncan of Springbank and Baroness Ruth of Tank Commander (after her forthcoming 'election' & coronation) And don't bother suggesting that Labour will abolish the Lords. They've spun that lie for long enough. Labour [emoji23]. HB [emoji23] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 12 hours ago, lichtgilphead said: Please remind me exactly how I can vote out Baroness Mone, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, James Graham (the 8th Duke of Montrose), Baron Duncan of Springbank and Baroness Ruth of Tank Commander (after her forthcoming 'election' & coronation) And don't bother suggesting that Labour will abolish the Lords. They've spun that lie for long enough. Lords don't have any real power and can be circumvented by the Government if necessary. The EU Commission and courts are a far greater obstacle to reform. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 If they don't have any real power, begs the question, what's the point?Millions wasted each year for nothing? Lords don't have any real power and can be circumvented by the Government if necessary. The EU Commission and courts are a far greater obstacle to reform. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Detournement said: Lords don't have any real power and can be circumvented by the Government if necessary. The EU Commission and courts are a far greater obstacle to reform. I think you're just a closet tory tbh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 I think you're just a closet tory tbh.No he's not. He's simply a guy who knows much more than the rest of us, and rather than pursuing our fantasies we should heed his every word and join him on the high moral ground, because there is nothing, absolutely nothing any of us can do about anything. Ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 I think detournement has a point about certain bits of how the EU operates, it's just there's also a lot of countries that consistently top all kinds of quality of life indices and they're all in the EU.Correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation. Like when welshbairn says that the EU stopped conflict in Europe post-WW2. I’ve read or listened to a few historians that would take issue with that statement but then maybe they’re all closet Brexiteer crypto-Tories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, NotThePars said: Correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation. Like when welshbairn says that the EU stopped conflict in Europe post-WW2. I’ve read or listened to a few historians that would take issue with that statement but then maybe they’re all closet Brexiteer crypto-Tories. Well, presumably a divided Germany, and NATO and the WarPac eyeing each other up over either side of the Elbe, that put any further european rivalries on ice. I would say that free trade across Europe and the integration of supply chains that comes from that properly put the issue to bed, no? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Well, presumably a divided Germany, and NATO and the WarPac eyeing each other up over either side of the Elbe, that put any further european rivalries on ice. I would say that free trade across Europe and the integration of supply chains that comes from that properly put the issue to bed, no?France entangling Germany’s economy with those around them was probably the best decision taken after the war, imo, aye. The most banter one was De Gaulle knocking back Britain’s entry in to the Coal and Steel Community or whatever it was called. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 European workers lost interest in fighting wars after WW1 due to the fact that it necessarily meant millions of them being thrown into a meat grinder. European elites lost interest in fighting wars after the emergence of carpet bombing and long range missiles which mean it's highly likely their capital gets reduced to dust. Obviously attacking less technologically advanced societies is still popular. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) Believing that the SNP model for an independent Scotland is horrific isn't the same as liking the UK. People need to get their head around the idea that an independent Scotland has huge challenges ahead of it and isn't automatically going to be better than the UK. Edited July 17, 2020 by Detournement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Detournement said: European workers lost interest in fighting wars after WW1 due to the fact that it necessarily meant millions of them being thrown into a meat grinder. European elites lost interest in fighting wars after the emergence of carpet bombing and long range missiles which mean it's highly likely their capital gets reduced to dust. Obviously attacking less technologically advanced societies is still popular. That's not it, not really. It relies on a model of rationality that I don't think you can really support with evidence. War between Europeans went out the window when the Soviets set up camp in Central Europe, for a bunch of elites worried about being in the firing line, they sure built a hell of a lot of longe range weaponry over those 50 years. Most of them were quite prepared to get into a conventional war with the Soviets. It's only really the British who assumed escalation to nuclear confrontation was impossible to avoid and thus cut their defence budget accordingly (it was assumed the BAOR might survive 2 days) War only became obsolete amongst West Europe when it became obvious that war was a physical impossibility from an economic and logistical point of view. The politics followed this trend. The thing about free trade is that is inherently unequal, drives down prices and suppresses Labour markets but it also makes it really hard to kill each other. Edited July 17, 2020 by renton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, renton said: The thing about free trade is that is inherently unequal, drives down prices and suppresses Labour markets but it also makes it really hard to kill each other. I'm not sure Latin Americans would agree with you. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Hahaha yeah. I guess renton means it makes it harder for states to go to war with each other but a f**k ton of people have had to die to get free trade into a lot of places -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 Believing that the SNP model for an independent Scotland is horrific isn't the same as liking the UK. People need to get their head around the idea that an independent Scotland has huge challenges ahead of it and isn't automatically going to be better than the UK. Yes, but people like you need to get it around your head, that Scotland would have the full power to make it better 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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