Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Pet Jeden]

9 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

See there's almost nothing I disagree with here in terms of your hopes for what happens. I think where we'll never disagree is I just don't see the EU's approach as being spiteful or bullying. I think, like most others on here, I don't see the EU as benevolent and the UK as malevolent. I just have a hard time blaming them for looking after themselves in a situation we have thrown ourselves head first into and assumed we could bully whatever we wanted out of them.

You say yourself that our economic ties with rUK are different to UK-EU, and an Indy Scot would simultaneously be likely negotiating entry to the EU. So while I see the point of your "replace x with y" litmus test I don't think it's a particularly relevant comparison, as the power dynamics and relative positions at time of negotiation are unlikely to be the same.

It will be the same. We’ll have to negotiate separation terms with England first. If they want to play silly buggers and make a big deal about the exact same issues as the EU is pumping up then it will be even more tricky for totty wee Scotland than it is for little England

[Jacksgranda]

36 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Not dictated from Brussels. Agreed according to international standards  which both parties have agreed to adhere to. Unlike, say, Norway who does just take rules. 

They can demand whatever they want. We can refuse. 

I'd rather both sides were being less publicly childish, but that's where we are. And to be fair, we started it. 

 

[Bairnardo]

Is there anything that betrays a weak negotiating position more than mewling about wanting the whole thing to be friendly before it really starts?

There really have been a few of the predicted chickens home to roost already after returning a large Tory majority. Things like Javid coming straight out and admitting everyone is going to be affected.... I wonder how many of these things being dripfed in it will take before some idiots realise what an act of stupidity this has been. I suspect lots.

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

I suppose that one of the reasons I get pissed off with people cheering on every spiteful act, or potential act,by the EU is that I can see this goading hard line English nationalists to take precisely the same bullying approach to future negotiations with Scotland. A good test is every time you hear that The EU wants this or the UK wants that, just switch the names with England and Scotland and then take a view on what is and is not reasonable.

Yes we better stop all this goading, Westminster Tories have been excellent at negotiating and listening to Scotland over these last 10 years, we don't want to upset them in case their position changes for the worse.

 

f**k. Me.

[BFTD]

51 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Is there anything that betrays a weak negotiating position more than mewling about wanting the whole thing to be friendly before it really starts?

There really have been a few of the predicted chickens home to roost already after returning a large Tory majority. Things like Javid coming straight out and admitting everyone is going to be affected.... I wonder how many of these things being dripfed in it will take before some idiots realise what an act of stupidity this has been. I suspect lots.

It's always, always going to be someone else's fault. If we keep close ties with the EU and don't end up with a comparatively stronger economy, the politicians will have betrayed the Great British public. If we end up trading on WTO rules and our economy suffers, it'll be the fault of pro-European Brits who sewed doubt and division, without which those vindictive Europeans would have been forced to give us whatever we wanted. If there aren't enough people to cover jobs with low pay and poor conditions, that'll be down to the idle poor. And when we pull out of the European Convention on Human Rights, it'll be necessary due to all of these criminals, terrorists, protestors, and benefits scroungers who've been taking the piss for far too long and need dealt with.

Any future problems we encounter will never, ever be a result of leaving the European Union. And, more importantly, people are never going to stop using that fucking awful Brexit portmanteau, which I think we can all agree is the real crime here.

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

I wonder how many of these things being dripfed in it will take before some idiots realise what an act of stupidity this has been. I suspect lots.

Your premise is flawed. They will never realise. 

22 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

And, more importantly, people are never going to stop using that fucking awful Brexit portmanteau, which I think we can all agree is the real crime here.

If you can use their language they should be able to use our sea. Otherwise it's spiteful. 

[BFTD]

3 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

It's almost forgotten that we only say Brexit because for a short spell we were all speculating on Grexit.

Someone referred to Scottish independence as 'Scexit' once, which was enough to make me consider unionism.

[Pet Jeden]

1 hour ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

It's always, always going to be someone else's fault. If we keep close ties with the EU and don't end up with a comparatively stronger economy, the politicians will have betrayed the Great British public. If we end up trading on WTO rules and our economy suffers, it'll be the fault of pro-European Brits who sewed doubt and division, without which those vindictive Europeans would have been forced to give us whatever we wanted. If there aren't enough people to cover jobs with low pay and poor conditions, that'll be down to the idle poor. And when we pull out of the European Convention on Human Rights, it'll be necessary due to all of these criminals, terrorists, protestors, and benefits scroungers who've been taking the piss for far too long and need dealt with.

Any future problems we encounter will never, ever be a result of leaving the European Union. And, more importantly, people are never going to stop using that fucking awful Brexit portmanteau, which I think we can all agree is the real crime here.

Nah. The real crime is straying into pretentious French before mastering English.

[Pet Jeden]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

Yes we better stop all this goading, Westminster Tories have been excellent at negotiating and listening to Scotland over these last 10 years, we don't want to upset them in case their position changes for the worse.

 

f**k. Me.

Eh, no thanks. I've got a perfectly good blow-up doll to see to here.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

2 hours ago, Pet Jeden said:

It will be the same. We’ll have to negotiate separation terms with England first. If they want to play silly buggers and make a big deal about the exact same issues as the EU is pumping up then it will be even more tricky for totty wee Scotland than it is for little England

I mean it would be if things were exactly as they are now. But considering any referendum is unlikely in this parliament, the number of variables which could change is pretty high. Again though, if Scotland voted to leave the UK and the UK (not England as you keep writing) decided to pursue a firm line of negotiations, why would that be playing "silly buggers"? 

We have a right to vote in a referendum, and right to expect the result to be respected by the power who set the question. We don't have a right to get the wet-dream, consequence-free version of what that vote entails. Regardless of whether I disagree with the issue (Brexit) or agree with it (Indy), I think it's important to be mature enough to know that making me and the people who support the same thing as me happy isn't everyone's priority. 

[doulikefish]

Good to see Pet thinks the Ruk when an indy Scotland happens=England

[Mark Connolly]

I, for one, am utterly astonished that a group of countries we've slagged off for the last few years, and tbh been arseholes to for centuries before, are being a bit dickish to us.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

5 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

Is there anything that betrays a weak negotiating position more than mewling about wanting the whole thing to be friendly before it really starts?

There really have been a few of the predicted chickens home to roost already after returning a large Tory majority. Things like Javid coming straight out and admitting everyone is going to be affected.... I wonder how many of these things being dripfed in it will take before some idiots realise what an act of stupidity this has been. I suspect lots.

We're nowhere near that level of knowledge yet, and I doubt if many will ever be. 

Brexit for most is an abstract concept. An ideology. The fact that Brexit is actually a series of thousands...maybe hundreds of thousands.....of minute details is well beyond the comprehension of your average person on the street, whether Leaver or Remainer. 

What interests the vast majority of people are the big, black and white headlines. The Express for instance feeds people 50 of these a day....'Brexit bonus', or 'EU in crisis' etc, etc. Today's doozy was 'First battle in the war won by the EU' (referring to the fact that initial negotiations will take place in Brussels).

The right-wing press excel in this type of  nonsense and propaganda, and to a greater extent that's what most Leavers want to hear. It's impossible for them to publish negative headlines or articles about Brexit, because they're the biggest cheerleaders.

The truth is, nobody will ever know if Brexit is a 'success' or a 'failure'. It'll come down to 55 million different opinions based on small events in the life of individuals.....your company cuts back on investment, or you're a farmer able to sell more milk, or you're a housewife and prosecco has doubled in price. 

There's not going to be some 'I've seen the light moment' for the whole country I'm afraid. Just a slow, turgid crawl to wherever it is we're going.

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

We're nowhere near that level of knowledge yet, and I doubt if many will ever be. 
Brexit for most is an abstract concept. An ideology. The fact that Brexit is actually a series of thousands...maybe hundreds of thousands.....of minute details is well beyond the comprehension of your average person on the street, whether Leaver or Remainer. 
What interests the vast majority of people are the big, black and white headlines. The Express for instance feeds people 50 of these a day....'Brexit bonus', or 'EU in crisis' etc, etc. Today's doozy was 'First battle in the war won by the EU' (referring to the fact that initial negotiations will take place in Brussels).
The right-wing press excel in this type of  nonsense and propaganda, and to a greater extent that's what most Leavers want to hear. It's impossible for them to publish negative headlines or articles about Brexit, because they're the biggest cheerleaders.
The truth is, nobody will ever know if Brexit is a 'success' or a 'failure'. It'll come down to 55 million different opinions based on small events in the life of individuals.....your company cuts back on investment, or you're a farmer able to sell more milk, or you're a housewife and prosecco has doubled in price. 
There's not going to be some 'I've seen the light moment' for the whole country I'm afraid. Just a slow, turgid crawl to wherever it is we're going.
 

I agree with this save for your claim that we may never know whether Brexit will be judged a success or failure. I think we'll know all right, and my money is very much on the latter.

[John Lambies Doos]

Barnier specifically calls out fishing.
Ha ha the fisherman are going to get fucked [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[AUFC90]

Ideally some kind of EU-UK deal is reached next year (probably after some extension). Deal no doubt with a few tariffs/quotas in each direction but allows EU to have shown remaining members that leaving hurts and allows UK to be seen to be sovereign again. Let that bed in for a couple years. Indyref 2 with a decisive vote (please not a 52-48 with consequent whingeing) followed by a civil negotiation with rUK with an England feeling confident and good about itself. Independence late in this decade. As relaxed a border as possible - not just for social ties, but because  Scotland's economic ties with England are even greater than the UK's with the EU. Whether the Scots then feel a need to get back into EU pffft. I'm not over fussed either way.
I suppose that one of the reasons I get pissed off with people cheering on every spiteful act, or potential act,by the EU is that I can see this goading hard line English nationalists to take precisely the same bullying approach to future negotiations with Scotland. A good test is every time you hear that The EU wants this or the UK wants that, just switch the names with England and Scotland and then take a view on what is and is not reasonable.
Oh, and I hope O'Kelly  eventually manages to patch things up with his estranged wife

It's a good job that, in the real world, white van men and Essex Painter and Decorators won't be negotiationg for rUK.

[AUFC90]

And to hell with this nice pish. Our opening negotiating position should be we don't any of your debt and we're padlocking Faslane as we speak. Over to you.

[John Lambies Doos]

And to hell with this nice pish. Our opening negotiating position should be we don't want any of your debt and we're selling the nukes to the Iranians. Over to you.

Ftfy

[Pet Jeden]

5 hours ago, doulikefish said:

Good to see Pet thinks the Ruk when an indy Scotland happens=England

Fully aware that we are The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that it will be Her Britannic Majesty's Ministers that will be negotiating terms of Scotland's separation. But the point was about where the antagonism from a forum like this is directed and from where the payback will come.

[Mastermind]

And to hell with this nice pish. Our opening negotiating position should be we don't any of your debt and we're padlocking Faslane as we speak. Over to you.

 

Yet more pie in the sky thinking from the gullible, minority Nats. I wonder who would have the upper hand there.