NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 The People’s Vote lot are really doing their best to rubbish any sort of Norway style deal aren’t they? I’m not sure if this scorched earth approach to a second referendum is a good idea given that it makes literally any Brexit anathema to ardent Remainers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 They'll be delighted this poll got leakedhttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/19/labour-would-lose-voters-with-stop-brexit-policy-poll-suggests Anyone who thinks Labour aren’t having to navigate a minefield over their Brexit policy are at it tbf. The SNP, Greens and Lib Dems have it comparatively easy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Anyone who thinks Labour aren’t having to navigate a minefield over their Brexit policy are at it tbf. The SNP, Greens and Lib Dems have it comparatively easy. Why so ? If they are running scared of Labour voters in the heartlands who voted for Brexit then they are every bit as culpable as May and Co in putting their party before the best interests of the country.The electoral fallout from Labour doing the right thing by the UK will be a lot shorter in duration than the lasting damage from ANY Brexit, never mind the toxic legacy a dithering, blithering Corbyn will bequeath Labour should he persist with this Mr Magoo impersonation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, NotThePars said: The People’s Vote lot are really doing their best to rubbish any sort of Norway style deal aren’t they? I’m not sure if this scorched earth approach to a second referendum is a good idea given that it makes literally any Brexit anathema to ardent Remainers. A customs union, Norway plus or Common Market 2.0 sound tempting but they're all just slightly shittier versions of staying in the EU, and hard to sell to either side. I think the final choice will come down to Canada plus, whatever that means, and Remain, but May will call an election first. There's no way she'll concede anything to Parliament which would mean a total split in her party, and Parliament won't let it drift into a hard brexit on March 29th. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Anyone who thinks Labour aren’t having to navigate a minefield over their Brexit policy are at it tbf. The SNP, Greens and Lib Dems have it comparatively easy. Running scared of racist ignoramuses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, MixuFixit said: They'll be delighted this poll got leaked https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/19/labour-would-lose-voters-with-stop-brexit-policy-poll-suggests The headlines are not representative of the article/poll results. IMO the biggest issue for Labour in the event of a GE is having a waffley policy. It will need to be very clear to win support at the ballot box. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: The headlines are not representative of the article/poll results. IMO the biggest issue for Labour in the event of a GE is having a waffley policy. It will need to be very clear to win support at the ballot box. Agreed. If they try to half please everyone the Tories will win again. A full out campaign on the things that are good about the EU and promise to fight to reform the things that aren't from the inside, rather than offering chlorinated chicken and flogging off the NHS to American companies, and turning Britain into an unregulated haven for exploitation and a zoom to the bottom for social and economic justice. It'll never happen though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 3 hours ago, MixuFixit said: They'll be delighted this poll got leaked https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/19/labour-would-lose-voters-with-stop-brexit-policy-poll-suggests The polls seem all over the place. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/19/uk-voters-would-back-remain-in-eu-over-theresa-may-brexit-deal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 A customs union, Norway plus or Common Market 2.0 sound tempting but they're all just slightly shittier versions of staying in the EU, and hard to sell to either side. I think the final choice will come down to Canada plus, whatever that means, and Remain, but May will call an election first. There's no way she'll concede anything to Parliament which would mean a total split in her party, and Parliament won't let it drift into a hard brexit on March 29th.It may very well come down to a Norway style solution, or No Deal. Scorching the earth in pursuit of a referendum which still has the backing of no major party could well cause major parties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Why so ? If they are running scared of Labour voters in the heartlands who voted for Brexit then they are every bit as culpable as May and Co in putting their party before the best interests of the country. The electoral fallout from Labour doing the right thing by the UK will be a lot shorter in duration than the lasting damage from ANY Brexit, never mind the toxic legacy a dithering, blithering Corbyn will bequeath Labour should he persist with this Mr Magoo impersonation. What are “the best interests of the country” in your opinion? How do you resolve the Brexit vote without potentially alienating large swathes of the population and causing serious damage to the long term engagement of a substantial section of the population? The People’s Vote lot don’t have an answer to that likely because they don’t care but it’s important to the Corbyn project, and any meaningful left politics in this country, to try and navigate a difficult path and find a solution that causes the least amount of economic damage to this country while responding to the economic factors that led to the vote in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 What are “the best interests of the country” in your opinion? How do you resolve the Brexit vote without potentially alienating large swathes of the population and causing serious damage to the long term engagement of a substantial section of the population? The People’s Vote lot don’t have an answer to that likely because they don’t care but it’s important to the Corbyn project, and any meaningful left politics in this country, to try and navigate a difficult path that causes the least amount of economic damage to this country while retaining the engagement of a majority of the population. In my opinion the best interests of the country lie in remaining in the EU, and I'd rather alienate large swathes of the population than impoverish an even larger swathe.With public sentiment hardening towards remaining Corbyn needs to park his personal prejudices before Labour ends up playing third fiddle behind the Liberals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: In my opinion the best interests of the country lie in remaining in the EU, and I'd rather alienate large swathes of the population than impoverish an even larger swathe. Spot on. Racist xenophobes being alienated is a good thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 In my opinion the best interests of the country lie in remaining in the EU, and I'd rather alienate large swathes of the population than impoverish an even larger swathe.With public sentiment hardening towards remaining Corbyn needs to park his personal prejudices before Labour ends up playing third fiddle behind the Liberals.There’s clearly a path to remaining in the EU or pursuing some sort of muted exit that doesn’t alienate those people anywhere near to the same extent that just cancelling Brexit will do. That last sentence is utter, utter nonsense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Spot on. Racist xenophobes being alienated is a good thing.I’m not willing to accept that every Leave voter is an inveterate racist. It’s also possible, and imo morally imperative, to articulate a meaningful case for socialism that doesn’t attempt to discriminate between the bad poors and the good ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 minute ago, NotThePars said: I’m not willing to accept that every Leave voter is an inveterate racist. I am. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 It would help if Labour made the case that the Tories are overwhelmingly responsible for the austerity economics, welfare cuts and wage stagnation in the UK, rather than the EU. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Still time for anything to happen in this crazy Brexit situation, but I now don't see a GE or a People's Vote. May will run down the clock on her deal till March and we'll be left with her deal or no deal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 There’s clearly a path to remaining in the EU or pursuing some sort of muted exit that doesn’t alienate those people anywhere near to the same extent that just cancelling Brexit will do. That last sentence is utter, utter nonsense. Since we're unlikely to have a GE soon we're not going to discover if it's nonsense or not, but anyone who thinks Corbyn's performance of the last year will build on the result of the last election is either deluded or hasn't been paying attention. Politics hates a vacuum and former Labour votes will go somewhere.But let me ask you a question - where is this clear path and muted exit ? The country would love to know.From Day One Labour should have been opposing Brexit rather than accommodating it, all the while driving home the message that this is Tory-created disaster in the making. And reinforcing the truth that the hurting has it's origins in Westminster as opposed to the EU. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Since we're unlikely to have a GE soon we're not going to discover if it's nonsense or not, but anyone who thinks Corbyn's performance of the last year will build on the result of the last election is either deluded or hasn't been paying attention. Politics hates a vacuum and former Labour votes will go somewhere.But let me ask you a question - where is this clear path and muted exit ? The country would love to know.From Day One Labour should have been opposing Brexit rather than accommodating it, all the while driving home the message that this is Tory-created disaster in the making. And reinforcing the truth that the hurting has it's origins in Westminster as opposed to the EU.Given that the Tories predicated their 2017 election strategy on being “the party of Brexit” I’m not sure how your idea that Labour should have immediately denounced the referendum result would have resulted in anything other than a crushing majority for Theresa May and a free rein to shape Brexit to their whims. Labour’s strategy has been to make a set of impossible conditions so that any deal offered by May is rejected. I think it’s fairly clear that the general policy is to pursue every avenue short of No Deal and if that’s what’s left, advocate for another referendum. Being seen to do everything to respect the result while muting the economic impact is a far more sensible strategy than going Andrew Adonis about the result.And you don’t need a general election to know that the Liberal Democrats overtaking Labour nationwide is just fantasy land stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Given that the Tories predicated their 2017 election strategy on being “the party of Brexit” I’m not sure how your idea that Labour should have immediately denounced the referendum result would have resulted in anything other than a crushing majority for Theresa May and a free rein to shape Brexit to their whims. Labour’s strategy has been to make a set of impossible conditions so that any deal offered by May is rejected. I think it’s fairly clear that the general policy is to pursue every avenue short of No Deal and if that’s what’s left, advocate for another referendum. Being seen to do everything to respect the result while muting the economic impact is a far more sensible strategy than going Andrew Adonis about the result.And you don’t need a general election to know that the Liberal Democrats overtaking Labour nationwide is just fantasy land stuff. I'm sorry, but I seem to have missed Jeremy Corbyn advocating a second referendum - when did that happen ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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