Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Shouldn’t matter. If the majority of the locals voted in one direction then the MP should do as they voted. They were elected to do as the voters wanted.

We live in a parliamentary democracy not a dictatorship of the majority.

[Granny Danger]

Andrea Leadsom, the Leader of the House, wants May to bring forward an amended deal that limits the timescale for the Irish backstop.

This is despite the EU repeatedly stating that was not an option.  This is the level of contribution from senior Tories.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Andrea Leadsom, the Leader of the House, wants May to bring forward an amended deal that limits the timescale for the Irish backstop.
This is despite the EU repeatedly stating that was not an option.  This is the level of contribution from senior Tories.
 

And completely ignores the GFA.

[Ira Gaines]

7 hours ago, supermik said:

Possibly my second post in here as I honestly do not give a monkeys chuff about politics. 

If a constituency voted to leave the eu, what right did their elected local MP have to vote against their wishes?

Since, on this issue at least, you appear to have an actual interest, here's a question. Do you want to see the UK out of the EU.

Answer this question ignoring what MPs or constituents want. I'm asking what YOU want, knowing how the situation is going.

[Detournement]

32 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

And completely ignores the GFA.
 

There's nothing in the GFA about the border.

[Lofarl]

Jesus Christ.   Are people actually suggesting that people didn’t actually know what they were voting for?  Brexit had the same uncertainties as independence but I’d doubt anyone on here telling a saltire waving yes2 campaigner that.  Fucking hell.

[sparky88]

3 minutes ago, Lofarl said:

Jesus Christ.   Are people actually suggesting that people didn’t actually know what they were voting for?  Brexit had the same uncertainties as independence but I’d doubt anyone on here telling a saltire waving yes2 campaigner that.  Fucking hell.

As with Brexit, the deal negotiated between the UK amd Scottish governments would likely be very diffferent to what was promised prior to a Yes vote. There will also be elements of the yes movement that won't care what the deal is and just want away from the Union. So  i expect they would say the same to a a Yes campaigner, in your scenario.

The SNP will be busy in the meantime trying to wriggle out of Indyref3, given their backing of a second EU referendum.

[Granny Danger]

8 minutes ago, Lofarl said:

Jesus Christ.   Are people actually suggesting that people didn’t actually know what they were voting for?  Brexit had the same uncertainties as independence but I’d doubt anyone on here telling a saltire waving yes2 campaigner that.  Fucking hell.

1.  Can you differentiate between a Hard Brexit and May’s deal?  If you can’t you shouldn’t post again until you do.  If you can then you will see that there is a significant difference between these two Brexit options.  So yes there is definitely a lack of clarity.

2.  A very detailed White Paper was published before the Independence vote.  It made it clear what people were voting for.  

If a similar level of detail had been presented before Brexit we would not be in the position we are in.

That said it would have been very difficult to publish that level of detail before the negotiations.  That is why, at the time, even leading Brexiteers were arguing the case for two referenda; one on the principle and a later one once the detail was known.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

As with Brexit, the deal negotiated between the UK amd Scottish governments would likely be very diffferent to what was promised prior to a Yes vote. There will also be elements of the yes movement that won't care what the deal is and just want away from the Union. So  i expect they would say the same to a a Yes campaigner, in your scenario.
The SNP will be busy in the meantime trying to wriggle out of Indyref3, given their backing of a second EU referendum.

Okay let's put this shite to bed.

Any IndyRef2 would be compulsory as opposed to the advisory referendum in the EU referendum.

Any IndyRef2 would be accompanied by a White Paper clearly laying out the type of agreement there should be between iScotland and rUK. In the EU referendum there was no such prior vision so there was no clear view as to a the type of agreement there should be between the UK and the EU. This wasn't helped by lying b*****ds like Johnson promising a Norway or Switzerland style relationship then fucking off when they actually won.

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, MixuFixit said:

He never seemed to bothered about mass resignations when they happened to him over and over again in 2015 and 2016

This is true.

I assumed that there would be overwhelming support in the PLP for a second referendum; I’m not sure if there is.

There are 256 Labour MPs.  I would hope about 200 would support that position but the numbers declared to date fall far short of that.

I reckon it would need at least 200 Labour votes together with SNP and others, including dissenting Tories, to get it over the line.

 

 

 

[sparky88]

8 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Okay let's put this shite to bed.

Any IndyRef2 would be compulsory as opposed to the advisory referendum in the EU referendum.

Any IndyRef2 would be accompanied by a White Paper clearly laying out the type of agreement there should be between iScotland and rUK. In the EU referendum there was no such prior vision so there was no clear view as to a the type of agreement there should be between the UK and the EU. This wasn't helped by lying b*****ds like Johnson promising a Norway or Switzerland style relationship then fucking off when they actually won.

What happens when the agreement between scotland and rUK is completely different to the white paper? You seem to be putting a lot of trust in the evil Tories to negotiate exactly what the SNP's white paper says.

And that White Paper would be an SNP rather than Yes document. What about other visions for an independent Scotland.

This is less a criticism of Brexit or independence, but of using referendums to decide such issues

Edited January 18, 2019 by sparky88

[Fullerene]

22 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

This is true.

I assumed that there would be overwhelming support in the PLP for a second referendum; I’m not sure if there is.

There are 256 Labour MPs.  I would hope about 200 would support that position but the numbers declared to date fall far short of that.

I reckon it would need at least 200 Labour votes together with SNP and others, including dissenting Tories, to get it over the line.

A lot of them are cowards.  They represent Leave constituencies and therefore assume that most of their voters have a deep seated hatred of the EU.

Maybe.  Alternative, they might be fed up with their situation and want to vent their anger - only it is being misdirected at the EU instead of the UK government that is causing all their misery.

Does anyone seriously think life in any of these places is crap because we don't have a trade deal with Bolivia or Bangladesh or Burkina Faso?

[killiekranky]

Any future election or referendum should require voters to answer 10 simple questions on the subject they are voting on.

Not to deny or exclude anyone but to ensure that they have a basic understanding of what they are voting on.

People could resit as often as they like until they understand the issue.

You are not allowed to drive a car without basic knowledge, why are you allowed to steer a country.

[beefybake]

9 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

There's a great view from David Runciman from the latest issue of the London Review of Books where he argues "It is not that parliamentary government has failed. Or that plebiscitary democracy has failed. But this way of trying to combine parliamentary government with plebiscitary democracy has failed." I think we'd all agree that you can hold referendums (we wouldn't be afvocating for indyref2 if we didn't. But it's apparent that you can't just hold a referendum on a whim when you can't see any other method of resolving your fucking internal party disputes. Particularly one as ludicrously complex and purposely aloof from daily life as the European Union.

Perhaps ( bold type ) that's part of it all.  I haven't a clue who 'my' MEP is.  Completely invisible to me.  I know who my constituency MP is, I know what he says. I know how he votes at Westminster. ( Tory sc*mbag).  He lives approximately 300 yards from me.  But the MEP.  I think of MEP's as just party hacks who've oiled themselves into a highly lucrative position , far away, and over whom I have zero influence or involvement.  Invisible. 

Something has to change in the relationship between a citizen and the MEP who supposedly represents him. 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by beefybake

[Frankie S]

Fintan O’Toole of the Irish Times spot on about Brexit in today’s Guardian. It was never about them, it’s about us.

Quote

The project was driven by decades of camped-up mendacity about the tyranny of the EU, and sold in the referendum as a fantasy of national liberation. It simply could not survive contact with reality. It died the moment it became real. You cannot free yourself from imaginary oppression. Even if May were a political genius – and let us concede that she is not – Brexit was always going to come down to a choice between two evils: the heroic but catastrophic failure of crashing out; or the unheroic but less damaging failure of swapping first-class for second-class EU membership. These are the real afterlives of a departed reverie. 

If the choice between shooting oneself in the head or in the foot is the answer to Britain’s long-term problems, surely the wrong question is being asked.

It was never about Europe

Edited January 18, 2019 by Frankie S

[welshbairn]

13 minutes ago, beefybake said:

Perhaps ( bold type ) that's part of it all.  I haven't a clue who 'my' MEP is.  Completely invisible to me.  I know who my constituency MP is, I know what he says. I know how he votes at Westminster. ( Tory sc*mbag).  He lives approximately 300 yards from me.  But the MEP.  I think of MEP's as just party hacks who've oiled themselves into a highly lucrative position , far away, and over whom I have zero influence or involvement.  Invisible. 

Something has to change in the relationship between a citizen and the MEP who supposedly represents him. 

 

 

 

It's partly because what they vote on is usually pretty boring, environmental protection regulations, product quality standardisation and the like. And also the PR voting system means there isn't usually a direct link between your MEP and your Constituency. Haven't a clue who mine is, and then you get the   ones elected by party list, like that fat UKIP c**t who gets to shamefully represent the whole of Scotland.

Edited January 18, 2019 by welshbairn

[Fullerene]

19 minutes ago, beefybake said:

Perhaps ( bold type ) that's part of it all.  I haven't a clue who 'my' MEP is.  Completely invisible to me.  I know who my constituency MP is, I know what he says. I know how he votes at Westminster. ( Tory sc*mbag).  He lives approximately 300 yards from me.  But the MEP.  I think of MEP's as just party hacks who've oiled themselves into a highly lucrative position , far away, and over whom I have zero influence or involvement.  Invisible. 

Something has to change in the relationship between a citizen and the MEP who supposedly represents him. 

I don't know the names of any UK ambassadors to anywhere.  I don't know the names of any of our UN delegation.  Sometimes I know the names of some civil servants but not most.

Most people don't have any direct need to contact their MEP but that doesn't mean they don't have a job to do.

[Savage Henry]

2 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

I don't know the names of any UK ambassadors to anywhere.  I don't know the names of any of our UN delegation.  Sometimes I know the names of some civil servants but not most.

Most people don't have any direct need to contact their MEP but that doesn't mean they don't have a job to do.

Right.  You wouldn't get many folk, I hope, saying we don't need ambassadors.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Shouldn’t matter. If the majority of the locals voted in one direction then the MP should do as they voted. They were elected to do as the voters wanted.

He should represent those who elected him as an MP, on whichever manifesto he stood. Not on how they voted in a referendum which (pre-vote, at least) was not party political. Maybe, just maybe, there's still a few voters out there who care about the NHS, education, social care, and social security...

[John Lambies Doos]

Has Fluffy resigned yet?