Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Granny Danger]

36 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Gruyere best guess then.

He’s wrong and there’s Stiltons of Edam in Dumbarton.

[DA Baracus]

19 hours ago, strichener said:

Only it isn't Scottish travellers is it?  It is UK travellers of which Scotland is still a member.  2014 appears to be forgotten in all this.  We had a chance and the majority voted to stay as part of the UK.  We can hardly complain when the UK then does something on a majority basis.

Nah, we absolutely can complain, especially when the 'No' folk promised that staying in the UK was the only way to stay in the EU.

[strichener]

1 hour ago, DA Baracus said:

Nah, we absolutely can complain, especially when the 'No' folk promised that staying in the UK was the only way to stay in the EU.

Not everyone that voted No wanted to stay in the EU, nor did everyone that voted Yes want to remain.  The two things are completely separate.  It is hard to hold the Yes side to the same level of scrutiny given that everything is rebutted with we aren't independent.  One thing that can be is that there was a promise of the last referendum being a once in a generation opportunity.  Politicians shifting position is as predictable as coastal erosion.

Edited June 25, 2022 by strichener

[welshbairn]

9 minutes ago, strichener said:

Not everyone that voted No wanted to stay in the EuU, nor did everyone that voted Yes want to remain.  The two things are completely separate.  It is hard to hold the Yes side to the same level of scrutiny given that everything is rebutted with we aren't independent.  One thing that can be is that there was a promise of the last referendum being a once in a generation opportunity.  Politicians shifting position is as predictable as coastal erosion.

Stating that it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to gee up turnout was a fact, there hadn't been one before. It wasn't a promise never to hold another for a generation, especially with a radical change to Westminster's relationship to the rest of Europe.

[Granny Danger]

25 minutes ago, strichener said:

Not everyone that voted No wanted to stay in the EU, nor did everyone that voted Yes want to remain.  The two things are completely separate.  It is hard to hold the Yes side to the same level of scrutiny given that everything is rebutted with we aren't independent.  One thing that can be is that there was a promise of the last referendum being a once in a generation opportunity.  Politicians shifting position is as predictable as coastal erosion.

Behold the levels of desperate unionism!  It was a throwaway line by a politician elected to serve for a five year period.  He was in no position to ‘promise’ any such thing and anyone who took it at face value was a fool.

[Soapy FFC]

26 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Stating that it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to gee up turnout was a fact, there hadn't been one before. It wasn't a promise never to hold another for a generation, especially with a radical change to Westminster's relationship to the rest of Europe.

Whereas the current UK Prime Minister actually promises, then reneges

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-high-wage-economy-pay-restraint-strike-action

 

[lichtgilphead]

41 minutes ago, strichener said:

Not everyone that voted No wanted to stay in the EU, nor did everyone that voted Yes want to remain.  The two things are completely separate.  It is hard to hold the Yes side to the same level of scrutiny given that everything is rebutted with we aren't independent.  One thing that can be is that there was a promise of the last referendum being a once in a generation opportunity.  Politicians shifting position is as predictable as coastal erosion.

A previous Tory Prime Minister of the UK stated that all that Scotland needed to do to acheive independence was elect a majority of Scottish MP's to Westminster.

Why do Tories never quote her, but always focus on one remark by the snp leader in 2014?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

55 minutes ago, strichener said:

Not everyone that voted No wanted to stay in the EU, nor did everyone that voted Yes want to remain.  The two things are completely separate.  It is hard to hold the Yes side to the same level of scrutiny given that everything is rebutted with we aren't independent.  One thing that can be is that there was a promise of the last referendum being a once in a generation opportunity.  Politicians shifting position is as predictable as coastal erosion.

As I recall there was the desperate cobbling together of the infamous 'Vow', allied to the No campaign's scaremongering over the EU acceding to a future membership application from an independent Scottish state.  Then came Brexit and all bets were off; is it any wonder that any 'promise' was rendered as worthless as the 'Vow' ?

And yet we are to believe that only the advocates of independence have shifted position ?  Aye, right.

[strichener]

4 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Behold the levels of desperate unionism!  It was a throwaway line by a politician elected to serve for a five year period.  He was in no position to ‘promise’ any such thing and anyone who took it at face value was a fool.

No it wasn't. It was in the White Paper, it was delivered by Salmond and Sturgeon on multiple occasions the latter on whom included it in her Conference Speech.  It certainly wasn't a throw away comment, it was calculated and repeated.

 

[strichener]

3 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

A previous Tory Prime Minister of the UK stated that all that Scotland needed to do to acheive independence was elect a majority of Scottish MP's to Westminster.

Why do Tories never quote her, but always focus on one remark by the snp leader in 2014?

Because she is dead.

[strichener]

3 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

As I recall there was the desperate cobbling together of the infamous 'Vow', allied to the No campaign's scaremongering over the EU acceding to a future membership application from an independent Scottish state.  Then came Brexit and all bets were off; is it any wonder that any 'promise' was rendered as worthless as the 'Vow' ?

And yet we are to believe that only the advocates of independence have shifted position ?  Aye, right.

And there was a future oil fund promised by the White Paper and we now have an SNP government that doesn't want to extract our natural resources.  What is going to pay for that 5% reduction in our energy bills that was also promised?

 

[williemillersmoustache]

Weird sort of democracy that thinks we should enact and be beholden to the prospectus of the side that lost.  

[DA Baracus]

8 hours ago, strichener said:

Not everyone that voted No wanted to stay in the EU, nor did everyone that voted Yes want to remain.  The two things are completely separate.  It is hard to hold the Yes side to the same level of scrutiny given that everything is rebutted with we aren't independent.  One thing that can be is that there was a promise of the last referendum being a once in a generation opportunity.  Politicians shifting position is as predictable as coastal erosion.

Massively disingenuous. You've shown your hand here.

[Granny Danger]

6 hours ago, strichener said:

No it wasn't. It was in the White Paper, it was delivered by Salmond and Sturgeon on multiple occasions the latter on whom included it in her Conference Speech.  It certainly wasn't a throw away comment, it was calculated and repeated.

 

You obviously do not understand how democracy works.  No politician can make a commitment beyond their period of office.  Even a politician in power cannot mandate something beyond the point when they can influence it.  Anyone who believes a politician can make commitments beyond their elected period of office is a simpleton.

 

[Frank Quitely]

9 hours ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Weird sort of democracy that thinks we should enact and be beholden to the prospectus of the side that lost.  

Like America you mean ?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

9 hours ago, strichener said:

And there was a future oil fund promised by the White Paper and we now have an SNP government that doesn't want to extract our natural resources.  What is going to pay for that 5% reduction in our energy bills that was also promised?

 

Thanks for proving the very point I was making; politics, like life itself, is a constantly evolving business and anyone who clings to 'once in a generation ' headline is either misguided or a purblind fanatic, or both.

Boris Johnson has this morning claimed that he intends to serve a THIRD term - will you be filing that for future reference ?

[Albus Bulbasaur]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

You obviously do not understand how democracy works.  No politician can make a commitment beyond their period of office.  Even a politician in power cannot mandate something beyond the point when they can influence it.  Anyone who believes a politician can make commitments beyond their elected period of office is a simpleton.

 

In addition to this, anyone who believes politicians can make commitments beyond their capabilities *cough cough* like a referendum may also be a simpleton. 

[Zern]

2014 referendum showed they were capable. And every election held since has a high degree of confidence and satisfaction with the processes. Capability is not a problem.

As to whether they can deliver the next one, that regards legal competence. A question that is not settled in law.

[strichener]

21 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

Massively disingenuous. You've shown your hand here.

What hand would that be?

18 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

You obviously do not understand how democracy works.  No politician can make a commitment beyond their period of office.  Even a politician in power cannot mandate something beyond the point when they can influence it.  Anyone who believes a politician can make commitments beyond their elected period of office is a simpleton.

 

The last time I looked, Nicola Sturgeon was not just in power but actually leads the government.  Glad you've dropped the claim that it was some throwaway remark by Salmond, at least that is progress.

15 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Thanks for proving the very point I was making; politics, like life itself, is a constantly evolving business and anyone who clings to 'once in a generation ' headline is either misguided or a purblind fanatic, or both.

Boris Johnson has this morning claimed that he intends to serve a THIRD term - will you be filing that for future reference ?

If it is constantly evolving then the OP referring to the referendum and leaving the EU can be ignored just as easily.  You have actually re-affirmed the point that I was making.  Taking the Vow or staying in the EU as  anything more than soundbites would be naive.

Edited June 26, 2022 by strichener

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

What hand would that be?

The last time I looked, Nicola Sturgeon was not just in lower but actually leads the government.  Glad you've dropped the claim that it was some throwaway remark by Salmond, at least that is progress.

If it is constantly evolving then the OP referring to the referendum and leaving the EU can be ignored just as easily.  You have actually re-affirmed the point that I was making.  Taking the Vow or staying in the EU as  anything more than soundbites would be naive.

^^^ simpleton found.