Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

12 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Pat Jeden thinking that the UK is a huge player here

To be fair he seems to have moved on to ok the EU are the bigger player, but acting like it makes them the baddies.

[Pet Jeden]

2 hours ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Good point.

Independent Scotland it is then.

I hope and expect that England will not behave as spitefully if/when Scotland chooses independence. All the dipsticks arguing that the EU’s demands are okay (because they’re big and because they can) should think things through. Imagine England saying they require an Independent Scotland to follow Englands tax, subsidy and environmental policies, to have disputes decided by London courts and to have Scotlands seas managed by England? It’s patently nonsense. Some otherwise rational  people need to stop letting their brains get scrambled by their hatred of England and hatred of  Brexit.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pet Jeden

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Has Kelly Isley III got 27 wives?

TBF, it sometimes seems like that [emoji26]

[harry94]

58 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Imagine England saying they require an Independent Scotland to follow Englands tax, subsidy and environmental policies, to have disputes decided by London courts and to have Scotlands seas managed by England?

Well yeah, anything sounds outrageous if you don't provide any sort of context.

On the environmental policies, this is something that is in place with current FTAs with Canada, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Ukraine etc. It's something that there has been recent demand for in the prospect of a US arrangement (which I think would be unlikely given their stronger negotiating position) and is just a common 21st century arrangement. 'Sustainable development' is a decent and very cheap way to keep on message and pressure to make sure that international cooperation continues. In all, I'm astonished if it would really get anyone knickers in a twist, it probably won't be anything that enforceable anyway.

On subsidy, the FTA will allow the UK access of some sort to the single market with goods and services being traded between with some sort of prior agreement on low or non existent tariffs for most of the economy.  When implementing an arrangement, what would happen if overnight, the UK bailed out or offered huge incentives to car manufacturers which subsidised them to a level where they had considerable advantage over manufacturers in the EU? Suddenly, companies are going bankrupt and the principles of the single market mean that the German government (for example) couldn't dive in with similar packages. It's common sense and both parties need to have some sort of agreement on state aid and it needs to be enforceable (through the use of some sort of arbitration process) to some degree - as exists with the agreements right now.

The UK are stating their interests of having a Canada style arrangement with some bonus points (to try and harness the best of all worlds) and the EU are uncomfortable with giving a competitive advantage away but would not like the economic disruption of the UK leaving its sphere so is looking for a more comprehensive arrangement (more so than previous deals which makes sense given this is totally unprecedented). That's just life and anyone throwing a hissy fit about the 'big bad EU' and being emotive about it really has little credibility.

We can only critique our own position which, for now at least, is heavily influenced by a lunatic SPAD who seems to have gained prominence by spouting pseudoscience nonsense in a blog and driven by financing that would be quite happy to see us shrink the size of government to nothing and eliminate workers rights. We've got an absolute shitfest of really vile human beings and nasty fuckers who have rode a wave of populism into office, let's look at our own house first and not get tricked into directing our inevitable anger into the wrong place.

Edited February 18, 2020 by harry94

[John Lambies Doos]

I hope and expect that England will not behave as spitefully if/when Scotland chooses independence. All the dipsticks arguing that the EU’s demands are okay (because they’re big and because they can) should think things through. Imagine England saying they require an Independent Scotland to follow Englands tax, subsidy and environmental policies, to have disputes decided by London courts and to have Scotlands seas managed by England? It’s patently nonsense. Some otherwise rational  people need to stop letting their brains get scrambled by their hatred of England and hatred of  Brexit.

Nobody is saying that, we are clearly correcting your stance. Ie we are stating that the EU is the bigger player and the UK won't get everything they want. After Scottish independence I would hope that Scotland will be fast tracked into the EU and will have similar access to England that Ireland will undoubtedly have post trade talks. Also, Ireland and the UK is bound by a common travel agreement, this I'm 100% certain will be applicable to Scotland hence there will be no borders to see your Granny in Berwick.

As for your other points re. Hating England and calling people dipsticks, tad childish

[HTG]

59 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

I hope and expect that England will not behave as spitefully if/when Scotland chooses independence. All the dipsticks arguing that the EU’s demands are okay (because they’re big and because they can) should think things through. Imagine England saying they require an Independent Scotland to follow Englands tax, subsidy and environmental policies, to have disputes decided by London courts and to have Scotlands seas managed by England? It’s patently nonsense. Some otherwise rational  people need to stop letting their brains get scrambled by their hatred of England and hatred of  Brexit.

Setting aside this my dad will batter your dad pish for a minute, I've seen the "lines to take" stuff that the UK will now work to and there is a lot less compromise in them than was previously the case.  The bottom line here is that the UK decided to leave. The EU isn't keen on bursting its own principles of collective partnership for the 27 to accommodate the one that's leaving.  In response, the UK govt doesn't now give a f**k whether there is an arrangement or not. We're far more likely to be Australia than Canada now that deal/ no deal is no longer the language you'll hear 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

I hope and expect that England will not behave as spitefully if/when Scotland chooses independence. All the dipsticks arguing that the EU’s demands are okay (because they’re big and because they can) should think things through. Imagine England saying they require an Independent Scotland to follow Englands tax, subsidy and environmental policies, to have disputes decided by London courts and to have Scotlands seas managed by England? It’s patently nonsense. Some otherwise rational  people need to stop letting their brains get scrambled by their hatred of England and hatred of  Brexit.

And relax.

[HTG]

Keep your ears peeled for "sovereign equals" on the brexit bingo buzz card. 

[Pet Jeden]

15 minutes ago, harry94 said:

Well yeah, anything sounds outrageous if you don't provide any sort of context.

On the environmental policies, this is something that is in place with current FTAs with Canada, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Ukraine etc. It's something that there has been recent demand for in the prospect of a US arrangement (which I think would be unlikely given their stronger negotiating position) and is just a common 21st century arrangement. 'Sustainable development' is a decent and very cheap way to keep on message and pressure to make sure that international cooperation continues. In all, I'm astonished if it would really get anyone knickers in a twist, it probably won't be anything that enforceable anyway.

On subsidy, the FTA will allow the UK access of some sort to the single market with goods and services being traded between with some sort of prior agreement on low or non existent tariffs for most of the economy.  When implementing an arrangement, what would happen if overnight, the UK bailed out or offered huge incentives to car manufacturers which subsidised them to a level where they had considerable advantage over manufacturers in the EU? Suddenly, companies are going bankrupt and the principles of the single market mean that the German government (for example) couldn't dive in with similar packages. It's common sense and both parties need to have some sort of agreement on state aid and it needs to be enforceable (through the use of some sort of arbitration process) to some degree - as exists with the agreements right now.

The UK are stating their interests of having a Canada style arrangement with some bonus points (to try and harness the best of all worlds) and the EU are uncomfortable with giving a competitive advantage away but would not like the economic disruption of the UK leaving its sphere so is looking for a more comprehensive arrangement (more so than previous deals which makes sense given this is totally unprecedented). That's just life and anyone throwing a hissy fit about the 'big bad EU' and being emotive about it really has little credibility.

We can only critique our own position which, for now at least, is heavily influenced by a lunatic SPAD who seems to have gained prominence by spouting pseudoscience nonsense in a blog and driven by financing that would be quite happy to see us shrink the size of government to nothing and eliminate workers rights. We've got an absolute shitfest of really vile human beings and nasty fuckers who have rode a wave of populism into office, let's look at our own house first and not get tricked into directing our inevitable anger into the wrong place.

Any kind of link please? I find it impossible to believe that these countries have signed a treaty stipulating their policies are to be dictated in future from Brussels.

But the point is. Are you happy for England to demand of Scotland the same environment/subsidy/waters control in any separation Treaty -yes or no? I'm not

[Pet Jeden]

16 minutes ago, HTG said:

Setting aside this my dad will batter your dad pish for a minute, I've seen the "lines to take" stuff that the UK will now work to and there is a lot less compromise in them than was previously the case.  The bottom line here is that the UK decided to leave. The EU isn't keen on bursting its own principles of collective partnership for the 27 to accommodate the one that's leaving.  In response, the UK govt doesn't now give a f**k whether there is an arrangement or not. We're far more likely to be Australia than Canada now that deal/ no deal is no longer the language you'll hear 

How many times does this get spouted? It's the cry of the spurned husband - I've got you in mind again, O'Kelly - shouting down the phone at his ex as she just tries to make some practical arrangements for separating their bank account and selling the house.

[HTG]

10 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

How many times does this get spouted? 

Other irrelevant pish deleted. It gets spouted because it is a fact and an influencer on the way in which the parties approach this. The 27 doesn't have to cede to the 1 if they judge that the price of doing so damages the interests of the 27. If you think the EU are on the cusp of being spiteful, I suggest you're not taking a balanced view and from a UK perspective you ain't seen nothing yet. 

[harry94]

8 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Any kind of link please? I find it impossible to believe that these countries have signed a treaty stipulating their policies are to be dictated in future from Brussels.

But the point is. Are you happy for England to demand of Scotland the same environment/subsidy/waters control in any separation Treaty -yes or no? I'm not

It's not as firm as that. It's a clause they like to apply which is known as 'sustainable development'. It's usually got some content on regulations of goods (i.e. energy efficiencies of certain items, obviously something which could undermine the efforts from the EU in developing their single market) but on the climate, it's generally nothing that firm. Usually just more of a 'we promise we'll try to be really good' and they make a big announcement trying to triumph it as an agreement on climate change. Not the actual legal text but here is a very brief review of some of the agreements in the Japanese deal.

I haven't seen anything that goes far beyond this proposed and we are already pledged to the Paris Agreements and actually been very strong in the process of it coming to fruition, I don't imagine much more than 'the UK and EU pledge to implement the commitments they've already made to....' and not really much ability for recourse if we don;t/

The point is that they haven't 'demanded' anything, if the UK doesn't like what is proposed, they are welcome to go the route of tariffs. The EU will come to the table with their vision of a single market and where we fit in to that and we'll come with our proposal. If Scotland is to be a 21st century prosperous country, we will inevitably have to cede some level of sovereignty to others, just as every country on the earth does. There's nothing that has been suggested that far that is really breaking any new ground or going a step further than trade agreements in the past.

[Pet Jeden]

48 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Nobody is saying that, we are clearly correcting your stance. Ie we are stating that the EU is the bigger player and the UK won't get everything they want. After Scottish independence I would hope that Scotland will be fast tracked into the EU and will have similar access to England that Ireland will undoubtedly have post trade talks. Also, Ireland and the UK is bound by a common travel agreement, this I'm 100% certain will be applicable to Scotland hence there will be no borders to see your Granny in Berwick.

As for your other points re. Hating England and calling people dipsticks, tad childish

"Dipstick" - you're right. That was unnecessary.

"England" - bad choice of word. It's more that  some folk take the stance that everything the UK government says is malevolent and wrong and everything the EU says is enlightened and right.

[Pet Jeden]

6 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Just out of interest Pet, how would you expect the negotiations to go in a perfect world, and what would the end state look like?

Good question. I'll need to give that some more thought.

[BFTD]

Say what you like about Pat, pretending to be thick as pigshit doesn't half seem to get you some bites. Kudos.

[Pet Jeden]

1 hour ago, MixuFixit said:

Just out of interest Pet, how would you expect the negotiations to go in a perfect world, and what would the end state look like?

Ideally some kind of EU-UK deal is reached next year (probably after some extension). Deal no doubt with a few tariffs/quotas in each direction but allows EU to have shown remaining members that leaving hurts and allows UK to be seen to be sovereign again. Let that bed in for a couple years. Indyref 2 with a decisive vote (please not a 52-48 with consequent whingeing) followed by a civil negotiation with rUK with an England feeling confident and good about itself. Independence late in this decade. As relaxed a border as possible - not just for social ties, but because  Scotland's economic ties with England are even greater than the UK's with the EU. Whether the Scots then feel a need to get back into EU pffft. I'm not over fussed either way.

I suppose that one of the reasons I get pissed off with people cheering on every spiteful act, or potential act,by the EU is that I can see this goading hard line English nationalists to take precisely the same bullying approach to future negotiations with Scotland. A good test is every time you hear that The EU wants this or the UK wants that, just switch the names with England and Scotland and then take a view on what is and is not reasonable.

Oh, and I hope O'Kelly  eventually manages to patch things up with his estranged wife

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pet Jeden

[O'Kelly Isley III]

8 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Ideally some kind of EU-UK deal is reached next year (probably after some extension). Deal no doubt with a few tariffs/quotas in each direction but allows EU to have shown remaining members that leaving hurts and allows UK to be seen to be sovereign again. Let that bed in for a couple years. Indyref 2 with a decisive vote (please not a 52-48 with consequent whingeing) followed by a civil negotiation with rUK with an England feeling confident and good about itself. Independence late in this decade. As relaxed a border as possible - not just for social ties, but because  Scotland's economic ties with England are even greater than the UK's with the EU. Whether the Scots then feel a need to get back into EU pffft. I'm not over fussed either way.

I suppose that one of the reasons I get pissed off with people cheering on every spiteful act, or potential act,by the EU is that I can see this goading hard line English nationalists to take precisely the same bullying approach to future negotiations with Scotland. A good test is every time you hear that The EU wants this or the UK wants that, just switch the names with England and Scotland and then take a view on what is and is not reasonable.

Oh, and I hope O'Kelly  eventually manages to patch things up with his estranged wife

My wife is right by my side Pet, as she has always been.

You just concentrate on keeping yours fully inflated.

[coprolite]

1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

Any kind of link please? I find it impossible to believe that these countries have signed a treaty stipulating their policies are to be dictated in future from Brussels.

But the point is. Are you happy for England to demand of Scotland the same environment/subsidy/waters control in any separation Treaty -yes or no? I'm not

Not dictated from Brussels. Agreed according to international standards  which both parties have agreed to adhere to. Unlike, say, Norway who does just take rules. 

They can demand whatever they want. We can refuse. 

I'd rather both sides were being less publicly childish, but that's where we are. And to be fair, we started it. 

 

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

35 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Ideally some kind of EU-UK deal is reached next year (probably after some extension). Deal no doubt with a few tariffs/quotas in each direction but allows EU to have shown remaining members that leaving hurts and allows UK to be seen to be sovereign again. Let that bed in for a couple years. Indyref 2 with a decisive vote (please not a 52-48 with consequent whingeing) followed by a civil negotiation with rUK with an England feeling confident and good about itself. Independence late in this decade. As relaxed a border as possible - not just for social ties, but because  Scotland's economic ties with England are even greater than the UK's with the EU. Whether the Scots then feel a need to get back into EU pffft. I'm not over fussed either way.

I suppose that one of the reasons I get pissed off with people cheering on every spiteful act, or potential act,by the EU is that I can see this goading hard line English nationalists to take precisely the same bullying approach to future negotiations with Scotland. A good test is every time you hear that The EU wants this or the UK wants that, just switch the names with England and Scotland and then take a view on what is and is not reasonable.

Oh, and I hope O'Kelly  eventually manages to patch things up with his estranged wife

See there's almost nothing I disagree with here in terms of your hopes for what happens. I think where we'll never disagree is I just don't see the EU's approach as being spiteful or bullying. I think, like most others on here, I don't see the EU as benevolent and the UK as malevolent. I just have a hard time blaming them for looking after themselves in a situation we have thrown ourselves head first into and assumed we could bully whatever we wanted out of them.

You say yourself that our economic ties with rUK are different to UK-EU, and an Indy Scot would simultaneously be likely negotiating entry to the EU. So while I see the point of your "replace x with y" litmus test I don't think it's a particularly relevant comparison, as the power dynamics and relative positions at time of negotiation are unlikely to be the same.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Genuine Hibs Fan
Spelling

[welshbairn]

The Government passed this only a few weeks ago.

Quote

Moving    goods    across    borders    can    pose    risks    to    the    integrity    and    proper    functioning    of    these    
markets, which    are    managed    through    customs    procedures    and    checks.
22. However,     with     a     view     to     facilitating     the     movement     of     goods     across     borders,     the     Parties    
envisage     comprehensive     arrangements     that    will     create     a     free     trade     area,     combining     deep    
regulatory     and     customs     cooperation,     underpinned     by     provisions     ensuring     a     level     playing
field for    open    and    fair    competition.    
B. Tariffs
23. The     economic     partnership     should     ensure no     tariffs,     fees,     charges     or     quantitative    
restrictions    across    all    sectors,    with    ambitious    customs    arrangements     that,    in    line    with    the    
Parties'    objectives    and    principles    above,    build    and    improve    on the    single    customs    territory    
provided     for    in    the    Withdrawal    Agreement    which    obviates    the    need     for    checks    on    rules    of    
origin

It didn't take long for Johnson to dump the Political Declaration.