Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[dirty dingus]

Swinson shitting herself to go to a GE. Andrew Neil putting her through the wringer.

[aDONisSheep]

35 minutes ago, tirso said:

Agree.  They all went into the last election promising to take forward the result.  It's an absolute disgrace Parliament haven't found the common ground to ensure unity when negotiating with a third party and get a deal through.  They've not bothered to compromise in any way and are all in it for themselves.  Whether it's idiots in the ERG or those that just don't accept leaving at all.  The EU have never been disjointed and know what they want.  If you believe the UK should honour the referendum result, they should have worked out a cross party strategy and stuck to it.  As Theresa May said, it's all very well voting her deal down but what leave do you collectively want.  

I don't agree with leaving but I accepted the rest of the United Kingdom gave a mandate to do so.  I have sympathy with the idea that referendums delegate  power to the people on specific questions and it's not up to Parliament to stop it by dithering or obstruction.   We need an election as soon as possible.

 

I'm not sure I quite agree with your first paragraph.  I'm not sure what parliament could have done to 'find common ground'.  Theresa May set a course very early on, in which she;

a)  Set off down a truly jingoistic path of 'Brexit means Brexit', 'Red, white and blue brexit'.

b)  Set up a set of ridiculous constraints on negotiations with her red-lines.

c)  Simply refused to even countenance cross party discussions (under pressure from her own party)

d)  Returned with a terrible deal, which she thought was a fait accompli.  She couldn't even convince her own cabinet that it was any good, let alone her wider party and which no opposition party could possibly agree to, because it was at heart a hopeless deal, constrained by her own hubris/red-lines.

 

We are here because the Leave campaign promised things it was impossible to deliver and 52% of the population liked the fairy stories. 

I don't blame Parliament for this and I don't see it as obstruction.  In my opinion many are simply acting as responsible stewards and have so far helped the UK avoid the fvcktastrophie that is a no deal Brexit.

Yours

aDONis

[cyderspaceman]

Would be funny if, for some reason, parliament closed before Bojo could get his election vote through.

[doulikefish]

Hopefully thats the plan

Would be funny if, for some reason, parliament closed before Bojo could get his election vote through.

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Swinson shitting herself to go to a GE. Andrew Neil putting her through the wringer.

She's quite right though. The opposition have the power to force one at the worst time possible for the Tories, after Johnson's failed to take us out on October 31st.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, aDONisSheep said:

I'm not sure I quite agree with your first paragraph.  I'm not sure what parliament could have done to 'find common ground'.  Theresa May set a course very early on, in which she;

a)  Set off down a truly jingoistic path of 'Brexit means Brexit', 'Red, white and blue brexit'.

b)  Set up a set of ridiculous constraints on negotiations with her red-lines.

c)  Simply refused to even countenance cross party discussions (under pressure from her own party)

d)  Returned with a terrible deal, which she thought was a fait accompli.  She couldn't even convince her own cabinet that it was any good, let alone her wider party and which no opposition party could possibly agree to, because it was at heart a hopeless deal, constrained by her own hubris/red-lines.

 

We are here because the Leave campaign promised things it was impossible to deliver and 52% of the population liked the fairy stories. 

I don't blame Parliament for this and I don't see it as obstruction.  In my opinion many are simply acting as responsible stewards and have so far helped the UK avoid the fvcktastrophie that is a no deal Brexit.

Yours

aDONis

Good post.

I agree with all you have said, however I now believe we've gone too far down this road, people on both sides (including the politicians and the electorate) are now so entrenched in their views that any sort of compromise is almost impossible.

I also don't see what a GE is going to achieve, it's extremely doubtful / almost impossible that any party will get a working majority and we're just going to end up back at square one.

It really is a shambles where I can see no way out......................

[Ross.]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

She's quite right though. The opposition have the power to force one at the worst time possible for the Tories, after Johnson's failed to take us out on October 31st.

Is it the worst time possible for the Tories though?

All this will do is set the narrative that anything but a Tory/Brexit Party vote is a vote to stop Brexit. The Tories and Brexit Party will come to agreement and stand aside for each other where it suits. Labour and the Lib Dems will split the remain vote because they simply won't come to the same agreement.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Ross.

[Guest]

The other issue with a GE is that EVEN that doesn't give you a say.

Take our Luciana as an example, you could vote Labour but end up with a "Change UK" representative or maybe an Independent, or maybe a Lib Dem or who knows, it might decide to support the Tories next month, all very confusing indeed..........

[Granny Danger]

Just now, WATTOO said:

The other issue with a GE is that EVEN that doesn't give you a say.

Take our Luciana as an example, you could vote Labour but end up with a "Change UK" representative or maybe an Independent, or maybe a Lib Dem or who knows, it might decide to support the Tories next month, all very confusing indeed..........

I would have all prospective Parliamentary candidates give a written commitment that if they leave the party they were elected under then they will resign their seat and fight a by-election.

Probably could not be enforced (unless enshrined in statute) but it could be used to embarrass defectors.

 

[dirty dingus]

14 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

She's quite right though. The opposition have the power to force one at the worst time possible for the Tories, after Johnson's failed to take us out on October 31st.

Think she can see her party bounce going down the tubes if Labour come out pro remain when the election happens and they can just point to her being a tory enabler with her voting record. I would be very surprised if she stands and retains her seat in East Dunbartonshire. Her continual refusal to work with Corbyn makes her look petty and spiteful.

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

Would be funny if, for some reason, parliament closed before Bojo could get his election vote through.

Its lined up for Monday after all the Bill's have been given Royal Assent. Up to Labour now to decide if that is good enough for them.

[welshbairn]

20 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Is it the worst time possible for the Tories though?

All this will do is set the narrative that anything but a Tory/Brexit Party vote is a vote to stop Brexit. The Tories and Brexit Party will come to agreement and stand aside for each other where it suits. Labour and the Lib Dems will split the remain vote because they simply won't come to the same agreement.

It could be a terrible time for the Tories. Johnson being unable to hold an election but legally forced to beg for an extension to the EU if he can't negotiate a deal by 19th Oct. Could be he'll be forced to come back to the Commons with something very like May's deal, which might even pass, but would need an extension to go through the legal hurdles. Total war declared by the Brexit party and the opposition force an election so the new deal can be put to a second referendum. Tories decimated and love and peace blossom throughout the green and pleasant land. I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one. 

[Ross.]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It could be a terrible time for the Tories. Johnson being unable to hold an election but legally forced to beg for an extension to the EU if he can't negotiate a deal by 19th Oct. Could be he'll be forced to come back to the Commons with something very like May's deal, which might even pass, but would need an extension to go through the legal hurdles. Total war declared by the Brexit party and the opposition force an election so the new deal can be put to a second referendum. Tories decimated and love and peace blossom throughout the green and pleasant land. I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one. 

I can't shake the horrible feeling that they half expected things to pan out as they have and it's all part of some Machiavellian scheme that I can't quite see the end game in, beyond it delivering exactly what they c**t's want. Are they hoping that the EU says no to an extension and they plummet out with a handy scapegoat?

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, tirso said:

 If you believe the UK should honour the referendum result, they should have worked out a cross party strategy and stuck to it.  As Theresa May said, it's all very well voting her deal down but what leave do you collectively want.  

 

It was Theresa fucking May who personally prevented any such 'cross party strategy' by shutting them entirely out of the decision-making process, battering on with the Bunfield party alone to produce a monumental turd of a 'deal' and try to ram it down everyone else's throat multiple times. Just because her successor has proved even more useless doesn't mean we suddenly get to revise what happened under her premiership.  

Quote

I don't agree with leaving but I accepted the rest of the United Kingdom gave a mandate to do so.  I have sympathy with the idea that referendums delegate  power to the people on specific questions and it's not up to Parliament to stop it by dithering or obstruction.   We need an election as soon as possible.

Pish. It was an advisory referendum that has proven unable to be implemented in any acceptable way, given the Parliament that the people subsequently elected to handle the issue in 2017. If there was consensus support for one form of Brexit in the country then there would have been such a coalition in Parliament: there isn't, because there's no such 'mandate' in the country. 

Another election is by no means likely to change that fact either. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by vikingTON

[tirso]

1 hour ago, aDONisSheep said:

I'm not sure I quite agree with your first paragraph.  I'm not sure what parliament could have done to 'find common ground'.  Theresa May set a course very early on, in which she;

a)  Set off down a truly jingoistic path of 'Brexit means Brexit', 'Red, white and blue brexit'.

b)  Set up a set of ridiculous constraints on negotiations with her red-lines.

c)  Simply refused to even countenance cross party discussions (under pressure from her own party)

d)  Returned with a terrible deal, which she thought was a fait accompli.  She couldn't even convince her own cabinet that it was any good, let alone her wider party and which no opposition party could possibly agree to, because it was at heart a hopeless deal, constrained by her own hubris/red-lines.

 

We are here because the Leave campaign promised things it was impossible to deliver and 52% of the population liked the fairy stories. 

I don't blame Parliament for this and I don't see it as obstruction.  In my opinion many are simply acting as responsible stewards and have so far helped the UK avoid the fvcktastrophie that is a no deal Brexit.

Yours

aDONis

what was so bad about the May deal?  It was hated by both extremes so it must have been doing something right .

As a Scottish independence supporter i've yet to hear why it's bad for an independent Scotland either.  It would have had a backstop of England taking rules and no hard border.

Edited September 5, 2019 by tirso

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It could be a terrible time for the Tories. Johnson being unable to hold an election but legally forced to beg for an extension to the EU if he can't negotiate a deal by 19th Oct. Could be he'll be forced to come back to the Commons with something very like May's deal, which might even pass, but would need an extension to go through the legal hurdles. Total war declared by the Brexit party and the opposition force an election so the new deal can be put to a second referendum. Tories decimated and love and peace blossom throughout the green and pleasant land. I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one. 

The problem there is that he's using the narrative of "they've screwed us all" to the brexiteer supporters in the country.

It's being dressed up as a parliament led coup to keep us in the EU as opposed to BJ doing anything wrong which of course will fire up all the lunatics, especially when they read the Mail and Express headlines of "betrayed" etc, etc.

As we all know, the Genie is out the bottle and I can't see any favourable outcome for anyone.....................

[vikingTON]

7 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I can't shake the horrible feeling that they half expected things to pan out as they have and it's all part of some Machiavellian scheme that I can't quite see the end game in, beyond it delivering exactly what they c**t's want. Are they hoping that the EU says no to an extension and they plummet out with a handy scapegoat?

Aye the government is going out there to deliberately get horsed on a daily basis, have its majority drop into negative double figures, fail to win any media coverage for its blatant pre-election bribe while losing the initiative on when to call that vote. And the EU's obviously looking at all of this and is now suddenly desperate to dig him out of that hole regardless. Literally not one single part of that makes logical sense. 

Occam's razor is at play here: Johnson and his advisors are simply incompetent and have played the limited cards given to a weak, near minority administration left by May in a spectacularly bad manner. There's really nothing more to it than that. 

[tirso]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

It was Theresa fucking May who personally prevented any such 'cross party strategy' by shutting them entirely out of the decision-making process and battering on with the Bunfield party alone to produce a monumental turd of a 'deal' and try to ram it down everyone else's throat multiple times. Just because her successor has proved even more useless doesn't mean we suddenly get to revise what happened under her premiership.  

Pish. It was an advisory referendum that has proven unable to be implemented in any acceptable way, given the Parliament that the people subsequently elected to handle the issue in 2017. If there was consensus support for one form of Brexit in the country then there would have been such a coalition in Parliament: there isn't, because there's no such 'mandate' in the country. 

Another election is by no means likely to change that fact either. 

Come on now.  They all said they'd implement it multiple times and triggered Article 50.

There's no consensus support in Parliament because of Theresa May's actions, losing her majority and Tory extremes in the ERG.  I don't accept that there was no other way of leaving and that there couldn't have been a coalition to take forward the clear mandate to leave.

[Ross.]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

Aye the government is going out there to deliberately get horsed on a daily basis, have its majority drop into negative double figures, fail to win any media coverage for its blatant pre-election bribe while losing the initiative on when to call that vote. And the EU's obviously looking at all of this and is now suddenly desperate to dig him out of that hole regardless. Literally not one single part of that makes logical sense. 

Occam's razor is at play here: Johnson and his advisors are simply incompetent and have played the limited cards given to a weak, near minority administration left by May in a spectacularly bad manner. There's really nothing more to it than that. 

I agree that my fears are completely illogical. There's still just that nagging fear that there is some sleight of hand being played and the b*****ds will somehow wind up with exactly what they want.

[wastecoatwilly]

8 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I can't shake the horrible feeling that they half expected things to pan out as they have and it's all part of some Machiavellian scheme that I can't quite see the end game in, beyond it delivering exactly what they c**t's want. Are they hoping that the EU says no to an extension and they plummet out with a handy scapegoat?

The EU don't want the UK to leave plus big business will be already be using this time to make sure it's business as usual with a few % here and there.
The game played out in the commons is destroying both major parties and I hope it continues.