Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Donathan]

Wishart did vote in favour of the soft Brexit option, but abstained on second referendum.

 

MacNeil, Monaghan and Hosie abstained on everything (were the latter 2 tellers?)

 

Also today I learned the SNP group at WM includes one guy called Stewart McDonald and another called Stuart McDonald.

[CaspianChris]

I guess it looks dangerously likely that no deal will be the outcome after the recent farcical votes.  Those Westminster clowns have absolutely no idea how to handle this mess they have caused and the whole situation is a complete fiasco.

Heard on the news there may be another attempt at a vote on the 2 options that narrowly failed tonight possibly on Wednesday , but I am struggling to see a more positive outcome if there is one.

No doubt all respectability that the UK once had is now gone and the country seen as one big laughing stock.

[akredz]

It just seems absolute madness that they are contemplating bringing back May's "deal" for another vote, given how soundly beaten it has been each time, and yet rather than come up with a new plan or even the idea of one, the choice looks like being something they've already soundly rejected or no deal, which they've also said they have no interest in.

There's far too much  " not voting for that" and not enough " here's a viable alternative"

[CaspianChris]

2 minutes ago, akredz said:

It just seems absolute madness that they are contemplating bringing back May's "deal" for another vote, given how soundly beaten it has been each time, and yet rather than come up with a new plan or even the idea of one, the choice looks like being something they've already soundly rejected or no deal, which they've also said they have no interest in.

There's far too much  " not voting for that" and not enough " here's a viable alternative"

Got a horrible feeling that despite all they not interested in no deal talk, that is where this is heading.  There is clearly little that all parties are capable of agreeing on and unless another extension to leaving date is secured then time is running out fast.

[sparky88]

52 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

No, Remain would win and Brexit would be dead and buried for a long, long time.

 

On a separate note, according to the Guardian breakdown three SNP MPs didn’t vote for anything.  I’m assuming that’s a mistake.

 

Stewart Hosie, Carol Monaghan and Angus Macneil abstained from everything. 

[DrewDon]

MacNeil's flight from Barra was cancelled due to military training, so he couldn't attend. I don't know about Hosie or Monaghan, but they both voted for revocation and a confirmatory referendum on the 27th. 

[oldbitterandgrumpy]

2 hours ago, Enigma said:

Quite frustrating that an element of the People’s Vote lot can’t support the soft Brexit of Common Market 2.0. If we do end up with a No Deal I hope they are absolutely hounded. Think the SNP have done the right thing here. A people’s vote to remain would raise just as many issues as it would solve.

 

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

No.  Not really.

Well, aye, it would, if you think it through. Especially now, after nearly three years of shambolic negotiations and petty Commons in-fighting.

Been following this thread daily since it started, first class debate.  But rewind through the pages and it's nearly always the same dozen or so posters that analyse and speculate on the day's proceedings in Parliament ,  offering  differing opinions on the consequences of whatever motion has been presented. They take it (rightly so) very seriously, but the bubble that is the Brexit Debate  isn't the world I leave the house for when I go to work.  For the people who get their news on Facebook, Brexit is just an annoying  noise that's constantly in the background. Rational debate is lost on them, and they are the people who are expected to be up to date and informed if they were offered a second vote. 

A 'Peoples Vote' would be a re-run of 2016 for most voters. Better informed allegedly, but unlikely to have been keeping pace with what's come to light since the original vote. 

And if, as the polls say, Remain were to win 55/45 (or whatever), it would hardly be a healing process. 

Fucked if I know what the solution is.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by oldbitterandgrumpy

[Granny Danger]

4 hours ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said:

 

Well, aye, it would, if you think it through. Especially now, after nearly three years of shambolic negotiations and petty Commons in-fighting.

Been following this thread daily since it started, first class debate.  But rewind through the pages and it's nearly always the same dozen or so posters that analyse and speculate on the day's proceedings in Parliament ,  offering  differing opinions on the consequences of whatever motion has been presented. They take it (rightly so) very seriously, but the bubble that is the Brexit Debate  isn't the world I leave the house for when I go to work.  For the people who get their news on Facebook, Brexit is just an annoying  noise that's constantly in the background. Rational debate is lost on them, and they are the people who are expected to be up to date and informed if they were offered a second vote. 

A 'Peoples Vote' would be a re-run of 2016 for most voters. Better informed allegedly, but unlikely to have been keeping pace with what's come to light since the original vote. 

And if, as the polls say, Remain were to win 55/45 (or whatever), it would hardly be a healing process. 

Fucked if I know what the solution is.  

Remain would win a second referendum.  We would stay in the EU.  

If the Tories tried to raise Leave at the following election it would tear them apart and the public would not want it rehashed.

Further change would not form any part of Labour’s next manifesto.

There would be a slight increase in support for a UKIP type party, however given FPTP that would amount to nothing and soon fizzle out.

That’s what would happen.

 

[The DA]

11 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Remain would win a second referendum.  We would stay in the EU.  

If the Tories tried to raise Leave at the following election it would tear them apart and the public would not want it rehashed.

Further change would not form any part of Labour’s next manifesto.

There would be a slight increase in support for a UKIP type party, however given FPTP that would amount to nothing and soon fizzle out.

That’s what would happen.

 

I agree with most of that which is why I'm puzzled that so many MPs seem dead set against a second referendum, frightened to even suggest it.  They must surely realise that they'll get horsed at the next GE if they stubbornly proceed with Brexit?  Although, to be fair, the voters will only have the same old shite to vote for so maybe the major parties don't care if they upset 55% of the voting public.

Edited April 2, 2019 by The DA
clarity and OCD

[doulikefish]

Douglas Ross face sitting behind Boles when he was binning the tories is superb

[Michael W]

Another referendum would have more of a chance had the "People's Vote" campaign not started banging on about it pretty much the day after the vote. They should've waited at least until after Article 50 was triggered as they have come across as bad losers from the start and never really gained much traction. The other trouble is that we've already had a people's vote - remain lost. 

Now we are where we are and a second referendum has failed to win strong backing, probably at least partly because of the above. 

As Parliament keeps saying no to everything, I can only see another vote offering two options: we don't leave the EU or we leave with no deal. As it stands I don't see how another referendum would get through Parliament. Even an election might not provide the required maths to get something through, but we are pretty much out of options now . Maybe we'll get there by default but I really can't see it. 

[John Lambies Doos]

I’m glad you’re agreeing with him.

No, you're accusing WB of pedaling shite when, on this occasion, he clearly wasn't. In your angry state you then again refuse to accept you were wrong. You are a decent poster but you need to stop picking fights at every occasion. Anyway quote below from EU leaders clearly complimenting the points WB and myself were making.

:She said EU leaders were also questioning the logic of arguing over things like a customs union or Common Market option at this stage, because right now, the UK has only three options as they see it - no deal, no Brexit or Theresa May's deal - and anything else is a matter for future talks once the UK has actually left.'

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

So:
May's Deal
No Deal
Long Extension

Seems to be the choices now, one of which will have to be chose in the very near future.

Long extension isn't guaranteed to be allowed by the EU so realistically it's May's deal or No Deal.

[dorlomin]

45 minutes ago, Michael W said:

Another referendum would have more of a chance had the "People's Vote" campaign not started banging on about it pretty much the day after the vote. They should've waited at least until after Article 50 was triggered as they have come across as bad losers from the start

Sorry but that is nonsense. This has been a deeply polarised debate from the off. And it was a "leave" voter who started the original petition for a second vote assuming there would be a narrow leave loss, while before the election Farage was talking about the need for a second referendum before they won the first. 

 

Quote

Even an election might not provide the required maths to get something through, 

Since June 17 we have been locked in a political dead heat, with a slight tory lead (though you will only see polls with a Labour lead posted here.) We now have both main parties disintegrating and two new political entities, Change UK and the Brexit Party, picking up 5-10% of the votes where they are included in the polling. Its not the boldest of predictions to suggest that in such circumstances an election might not resolve the issues of a country split something like 48/52 on an issue that splits both main parties. Our political system is in gridlock exacerbated  by the demographics that will likely shift towards a remain majority but with a strong majority of parliamentary seats being leave. 

[akredz]

4 minutes ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

So:
May's Deal
No Deal
Long Extension

Seems to be the choices now, one of which will have to be chose in the very near future.

Long extension isn't guaranteed to be allowed by the EU so realistically it's May's deal or No Deal.

I was under the impression that a "long extension" would only be agreed by the EU if they felt that the UK actually had a plan and was working out the details.  As it seems Westminster can't agree whether the moon is made of cheese, that seems unlikely. Doubly so, given the PM's statement that she has no intention of having the European elections held, which are due in late M ay - and have been cited by the EU as a prequisite for any extension beyond that date.

 

[sparky88]

Peoples Vote would have had a chance had revocation been introduced to the debate earlier. Revocation is effectively the Remainers' No Deal so PV would have been seen as a moderate option. 

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

I was under the impression that a "long extension" would only be agreed by the EU if they felt that the UK actually had a plan and was working out the details.  As it seems Westminster can't agree whether the moon is made of cheese, that seems unlikely. Doubly so, given the PM's statement that she has no intention of having the European elections held, which are due in late M ay - and have been cited by the EU as a prequisite for any extension beyond that date.
 

Not sure we can believe anything the PM says which is why I left it as an option.

EU seem to be saying that we are doing indicative votes on options that aren't on the table as well.

[dorlomin]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

If the Tories tried to raise Leave at the following election it would tear them apart and the public would not want it rehashed.

Further change would not form any part of Labour’s next manifesto.

There would be a slight increase in support for a UKIP type party, however given FPTP that would amount to nothing and soon fizzle out.

This is a day dream that has no relation to polling or the general depth of polarised antipathy currently in the political system. Anti EU has been deeply baked into the mindset of the right for 3 decades now. 

 

 

It was not going to go away if we had won the June 16 election and will not go away after a second referendum. More over the majority of seats in the UK poll towards Leave, or at least did. 

This is going to fester, either way for a decade or three more. 

[sparky88]

11 minutes ago, dorlomin said:

Sorry but that is nonsense. This has been a deeply polarised debate from the off. And it was a "leave" voter who started the original petition for a second vote assuming there would be a narrow leave loss, while before the election Farage was talking about the need for a second referendum before they won the first. 

 

Since June 17 we have been locked in a political dead heat, with a slight tory lead (though you will only see polls with a Labour lead posted here.) We now have both main parties disintegrating and two new political entities, Change UK and the Brexit Party, picking up 5-10% of the votes where they are included in the polling. Its not the boldest of predictions to suggest that in such circumstances an election might not resolve the issues of a country split something like 48/52 on an issue that splits both main parties. Our political system is in gridlock exacerbated  by the demographics that will likely shift towards a remain majority but with a strong majority of parliamentary seats being leave. 

The only absolute certainty is that the Brexit Party will descend into infighting and a few senior members of the party will be filmed being horrendously racist.

[Loondave1]

It really wasn't. We can do better than this clusterfuck and you know it.

All I saw was a wee puffed up blowfish waiting to put in his well rehearsed but dull "Scotland ignored" speach. "Ignored" and "not getting our own way" being fairly interchangeable with the SNP. Not sure the way out of the impasse but empty windbaggery isn't it.