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Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.


John Lambies Doos

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Heard part of PMQs today; Corbyn is chronic.

He actually does have an alternative to May but seems incapable of getting his point over.

When she asks what he would do differently he needs to say ‘Customs Union’ repeatedly.

The backstop is a product of May’s red lines.  A negotiation that included a Customs Union might not have been easy but would have been easier and could have avoided a backstop.

 

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Heard part of PMQs today; Corbyn is chronic.
He actually does have an alternative to May but seems incapable of getting his point over.
When she asks what he would do differently he needs to say ‘Customs Union’ repeatedly.
The backstop is a product of May’s red lines.  A negotiation that included a Customs Union might not have been easy but would have been easier and could have avoided a backstop.
 
But how can 'a type of customs union' as he so eloquently puts it allow independent trade deals?
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11 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 But how can 'a type of customs union' as he so eloquently puts it allow independent trade deals?

Maybe it can’t, but that doesn’t mean it is not a credible position.

It all comes back to exactly what people who voted ‘Leave’ were actually voting for and there is no concensus as to what that was/is.

I will reiterate the point; the backstop is a product of May’s ‘red lines’.  The only way it might be removed is if she changes them.

 

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20 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:
31 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:
Heard part of PMQs today; Corbyn is chronic.
He actually does have an alternative to May but seems incapable of getting his point over.
When she asks what he would do differently he needs to say ‘Customs Union’ repeatedly.
The backstop is a product of May’s red lines.  A negotiation that included a Customs Union might not have been easy but would have been easier and could have avoided a backstop.
 

But how can 'a type of customs union' as he so eloquently puts it allow independent trade deals?

We probably couldn't. The EFTA countries are in the single market but for a few exceptions, but aren't in the customs union so they can negotiate their own trade deals with third parties, acting together. Turkey is maybe the closest to Corbyn's idea, but it's hard to tell without him indicating which of May's red lines he's prepared to soften. 

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/eu-turkey-customs-union/

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2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Maybe it can’t, but that doesn’t mean it is not a credible position.

It all comes back to exactly what people who voted ‘Leave’ were actually voting for and there is no concensus as to what that was/is.

I will reiterate the point; the backstop is a product of May’s ‘red lines’.  The only way it might be removed is if she changes them.

 

They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'.

However misinformed they were didn't  really matter to them. .  All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. 

All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed.  

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8 minutes ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said:

They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'.

However misinformed they were didn't  really matter to them. .  All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. 

All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed.  

That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads.

The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit.

I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own.

Of course our politicians are just a cameo of what's the reality throughout society............

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50 minutes ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said:

They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'.

However misinformed they were didn't  really matter to them. .  All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. 

All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed.  

 

Totally agree.

No wonder you're oldbitterandgrumpy and supporting Clach probably doesn't help you.

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36 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads.

The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit.

I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own.

Of course our politicians are just a cameo of what's the reality throughout society............

Why should they even make an attempt?  In the wonderful age of Social Media, they can, with a click of a mouse  summon up as much support in favour of their views as they need.  Thereby confirming to themselves that they are right.

As for politicians, I suppose there is a need for them.  But seriously, would you want any of them as your friend? 

God, it's so easy to be cynical, I really should get out more. 

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Quote

That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads.

If the people commenting in the Express, Mail, Sun, Telegraph are real and not just 'Russian trollbots' then I genuinely despair. They chunter on about WTO , for example, without knowing what they are talking about. No-one seems interested in educating them. (except me :angel)

Quote

The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit.

Always has been. That's why we live in a capitalist sytem.  Social media should mean we are better informed but you're right, it has had the opposite effect.

Quote

I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own.

But what if the other 'views' sre just plain wrong , stupid , misinformed and daft?       :whistle

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44 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads.

The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit.

I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own.

Of course our politicians are just a cameo of what's the reality throughout society............

In my experience people are happy to adopt an opinion from anyone on things where they previously had no opinion at all.

Step 1: Start a rumour.
"The goalkeeper for Caerphilly Wanderers is the worst goalkeeper in history"

Step 2: Wait a few days and then ask questions.
"What do you think of the goalkeeper for Caerphilly Wanderers."
"Don't like him.  I think he is crap."

I suspect most leave voters had absolutely no opinion on the EU but if they are constantly told we should leave - then surprise, surprise, they soon decide it is a good idea too.

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1 hour ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said:

They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'.

However misinformed they were didn't  really matter to them. .  All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. 

All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed.  

You’re entitled to your cynicism, it’s probably justified, but I get annoyed when politicians claim that they know what Leave voters voted for.  They don’t.

 

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The media are complicit in this shit as well though. They've credulously reported on everything Leavers, and May's government, have claimed is possible to do or haven't interrogated the real consequences of what they're saying. Andrew Neil having a go at James Delingpole over the WTO rules is the first time I can recall a real critique of what Hard Brexiteers have been claiming will be fine to do for months.

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19 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It will hurt the Irish more than it will hurt us.

 

The brexiters think it will hurt everyone more than them. 

"They need our tourists cash"  "They need to sell us their cars"  "They need us to buy their Champagne" "They need our military intelligence"  etc, etc.

What sort of an attitude is this?  No, really, what is the psychological reason behind statements like this?

I'm sure there is one but not being a psychologist, all I can think of is "scared shitless and whistling in the dark".

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4 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

You’re entitled to your cynicism, it’s probably justified, but I get annoyed when politicians claim that they know what Leave voters voted for.  They don’t.

 

It annoys me when leave voters claim to know what leave voters voted for. 

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