strichener Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 55 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: What would you change about it? Nothing. I would abolish it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, strichener said: Even with the current directive, it is a floor that is set. Countries are free to set it to any rate above the 15% floor. Ask yourself why that floor isn't 0%. We still have zero rated goods, and 5% is allowed in certain circumstances. You're just not allowed to drop from the standard rate having set goods there. I'd try to reform it from the inside to allow higher rates on luxury goods and lower rates on essentials, but the cost/benefits of leaving just for VAT control under a Tory Government would rule it out. Edited January 23, 2019 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, strichener said: Nothing. I would abolish it. And replace the lost revenue with? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zidane's child Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said: And replace the lost revenue with? The £350 million we’ll save from not paying into the EU... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Just now, zidane's child said: The £350 million we’ll save from not paying into the EU... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 56 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said: They need us more than we need them. We need to start telling Brussels what to do rather than the other way around. Who won the fucking war again? Every time I see the “they need us more” argument and the idea that they will suffer as much as us it makes me think of this: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, welshbairn said: We still have zero rated goods, and 5% is allowed in certain circumstances. You're just not allowed to drop from the standard rate having set goods there. I know exactly what the rules are, we are not allowed to set goods to reduced rates unless there is agreement across the EU to allow it (see tampon tax). Also the current directive does not allow the government flexibility to temporarily increase VAT revenue by increasing the vat rate as once this is done, it cannot be set back to the zero rate or reduced rate regardless of what was in place in 1991.. Your argument regarding distortion would hold more weight in there were similar restrictions to prevent distortions in the labour market or with corporate taxes. A sovereign state should have control over domestic taxation. I ask again - why is the floor not zero which would also prevent member states from using the tax to distort markets? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Asking what EU law needs changing should work, but they just say all of them and spin to taking back control. Or how they think we can get better trade deals with the leverage of a market of 60 million rather than 700 million, but they'd just say we wouldn't know until we tried. Logic doesn't trounce emotion.Is that not what us in the Yes movement were also saying? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: And replace the lost revenue with? What lost revenue? You surely realise that VAT existed before the directive? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, strichener said: What lost revenue? You surely realise that VAT existed before the directive? What are you going to reduce it to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Every time I see the “they need us more” argument and the idea that they will suffer as much as us it makes me think of this: And you were around to see that war won. No wonder you voted correctly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, strichener said: I ask again - why is the floor not zero which would also prevent member states from using the tax to distort markets? Having Somerset scrumpy set at 0% and Normandy cidre at 20% would be a bit unfair. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, strichener said: What lost revenue? You surely realise that VAT existed before the directive? You want to abolish the Directive to increase revenue? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: What are you going to reduce it to? My objection to the VAT directive is not around the current VAT rates. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, strichener said: My objection to the VAT directive is not around the current VAT rates. So what would you reduce it to? I'll edit this to: what should the rates be considering we already have reduced rates and zero rates on a ton of stuff. If you don't know you've really just got a general mump n' moan about the EU for no real reason. Edited January 23, 2019 by Baxter Parp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, strichener said: I know exactly what the rules are, we are not allowed to set goods to reduced rates unless there is agreement across the EU to allow it (see tampon tax). Also the current directive does not allow the government flexibility to temporarily increase VAT revenue by increasing the vat rate as once this is done, it cannot be set back to the zero rate or reduced rate regardless of what was in place in 1991.. Your argument regarding distortion would hold more weight in there were similar restrictions to prevent distortions in the labour market or with corporate taxes. A sovereign state should have control over domestic taxation. I ask again - why is the floor not zero which would also prevent member states from using the tax to distort markets. You seem to be simultaneously arguing that the EU rules aren't flexible enough to allow market distortion and aren't flexible enough to prevent market distortion. What is it you actually want? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: You want to abolish the Directive to increase revenue? No. That could be done within the current directive. The UK could set the standard rate to 25% within the current directive. We ccamot however reduce VAT on domestic energy from 5%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Just now, Tibbermoresaint said: You seem to be simultaneously arguing that the EU rules aren't flexible enough to allow market distortion and aren't flexible enough to prevent market distortion. What is it you actually want? A general mump n moan about the EU. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, strichener said: We ccamot however reduce VAT on domestic energy from 5%. Only because the Tories added it in 1991. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, strichener said: We ccamot however reduce VAT on domestic energy from 5%. So you want to incentivise global warming? Spoiler Bit trite, I admit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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