Guest Jedi Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) Rogers speech is really good. On three of the 9 points he makes in particular... 'cross border data flows are completely central to free trade and prosperity – not that you would know it from listening to our current trade debate, which remains bizarrely obsessed with tariffs which, outside agriculture, have become a very modest element in the real barriers to cross border trade.' As he suggests, the focus on tariffs has diverted from the need to ensure data flows with the EU which involve working co-operatively with them on many issues. Some of these of course involve security as well as trade, How for example does the UK continue to operate with for instance Europol on matters of crime and terrorism when outside the corridors of power? It is that sharing of information which is essential to also keeping the UK safe. As he also says, by locking ourselves into a late March leaving date, it immediately handed the other 27 the power over negotiations. This was part of May's ridiculous 'Brexit means Brexit' phrase. ie we have to leave within the confines of Article 50. In reality it was always going to take years to untangle the UK from the EU, but by setting a 'date' it has led to the current chaos to try and meet that date no matter what, 'We have essentially sacrificed all ambition on services sectors in return for ending free movement, sold the latter as a boon (when amongst other things, it clearly diminishes the value of a UK passport), and presented the former as a regaining of sovereignty, when it guarantees a major loss of market access in much our largest export market.' Exactly. The obsession with controlling immigration has driven the Leave side and caused them to take their eye off the ball of the most important issue...trade. Rodgers goes on to discuss the nightmare of WTO rules of a no deal scenario which again 'Leave' will continue, over the next few weeks to trumpet as feasible, Edited December 16, 2018 by Jedi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 16, 2018 Author Share Posted December 16, 2018 Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distant Doonhamer Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 7 hours ago, Detournement said: John Major's idea of revoking A50 without a referendum is great if your goal is to totally destroy the Conservative Party. So it`s win win then 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? Changed your mind again? Fair do's , I do most days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 16, 2018 Author Share Posted December 16, 2018 Changed your mind again? Fair do's , I do most days.No I really haven't and in no way does this post indicate that. Still think A50 will be extended then referendum. I'm just asking whether anyone on the forum thinks this is a tad undemocratic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 7 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Changed your mind again? Fair do's , I do most days. No I really haven't and in no way does this post indicate that. Still think A50 will be extended then referendum. I'm just asking whether anyone on the forum thinks this is a tad undemocratic I don't. If we've started to use this very modern invention of having big polls before the elected Parliament makes a decision, then the more the merrier. Certainly forcing the elected Government to abide by a 3 year old and really badly informed poll would be silly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: I'd seriously recommend that every poster on this thread reads the Ivan Rogers speech - it is long but it's also extremely powerful and worrying in equal meaure. I second this. It's well worth the time spent reading it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 53 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? No. A second referendum is essentially asking the same electorate (presumably) the same question again. If these same folk turn round this time and say "actually that was fucking stupid, what were thinking. Let's stay in" then surely that is the "will of the people" that the gammonatti are always chuntering on about. I mean it's not as if we're getting a different electorate to sneakily overturn the result. This "will of the people" pish isn't frozen in time to 2016. IF (and it's still a big "if" imo) there's another referendum and it returns a fairly convincing remain vote, then we'll have had three referenda in the last 40-odd years, two of which will have returned solid remain votes. The gammons can take a giant f**k to themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 1 hour ago, John Lambies Doos said: Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? How is democracy anti-democratic? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Seems even Murdoch hates the Elite. Welcome your new Populist leaders! Sun editorial.. THE SUN ON SUNDAY SAYS Britain will be humiliated by Jean-Claude Juncker no more — come March we will have a clean-break Brexit This week Eurocrats proved they’d rather cut their nose off to spite their face — we don't need a deal with the EU FINALLY, some concrete planning for a clean-break Brexit. This week the jumped-up bureaucrats at the top of the Brussels tree proved that they simply aren’t interested in negotiating a good deal, for us or for them. This week Jean-Clude Juncker and his jumped-up Eurocrats proved they'd rather cut their nose off to spite their face They’d rather cut their nose off to spite their face, putting their ideological project ahead of the interests of their citizens. Even national leaders seem more interested in trying to trap us into an undemocratic second referendum than ensuring their businesses can freely trade with the fifth-largest economy in the world. The way Jean-Claude Juncker patronised the PM this week was an utter disgrace. We will be humiliated no more - we don't need a deal with the EU, we need a clean-break Brexit When the clock strikes 11pm on March 29th next year, we WILL leave the European Union. And we must put every penny and pound we can into ensuring that our exit is as smooth as possible. The Brussels beast has wormed its way into just about every one of our institutions. Getting rid of it is going to take some work. But the predictions of apocalyptic job losses? Instant recession? We’ve heard the doomsday predictions before. Believe in Britain and we have nothing to fear come 29 March 2019 Wrong then, wrong now. There is one thing we are sure of, though, never more so than this week. If we believe in ourselves we have nothing to fear. This has always been Murdoch’s thing. He’s always been quite explicit in his disdain for traditional elites. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Folks can debate whether a second referendum is theoretically democratic or not all day but if it’s put forward by people who never accepted the original democratic result then it will be attacked as an attempt to overturn the original result. Especially if Remain wins with less votes than the original Leave vote. It would be simple for the Leavers to make the argument that a second referendum was illegitimate and then reject the new vote if the turnout was below the 2016 vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, NotThePars said: Folks can debate whether a second referendum is theoretically democratic or not all day but if it’s put forward by people who never accepted the original democratic result then it will be attacked as an attempt to overturn the original result. Especially if Remain wins with less votes than the original Leave vote. It would be simple for the Leavers to make the argument that a second referendum was illegitimate and then reject the new vote if the turnout was below the 2016 vote. And what difference would gammon rejecting the result make? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawpar Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 4 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said: Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? Because the first was democratic lying about pish like £350m going back to the NHS and how we would be better off with them immigrants from Pakistan and India not coming to the UK despite the fact it was a referendum regarding Europe. Ya unionist leave undemocratic racist p***k. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 5 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said: Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? Yes and I devoted an entire chapter to it in my new book "Black is White". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike rankine Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 I don't see a second referendum as undemocratic - far from it, in fact.Caroline Lucas mangled the quote slightly on Question Time last week but there's an old carpenter's saying..."measure twice, cut once." Before a major cut you should double check you've got it right.Leaving the EU is one of the biggest cuts we've ever taken; better to check the electorate still wish to proceed now that we're all better informed.The only risk I see, which has already been mentioned, is a lower turnout. If we have a second referendum it's vital both sides get people out to vote otherwise the 17.4m figure will be cast up irrespective of the percentages. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 8 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said: Does anyone think a second referendum would be a tad undemocratic? It seems ok for the Scottish people’s opinion to be ignored so why not for the rest of the uk too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, AyrExile said: It seems ok for the Scottish people’s opinion to be ignored so why not for the rest of the uk too Fair point. It was certainly ignored in the 2016 EU ref. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrExile Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 24 minutes ago, jupe1407 said: Fair point. It was certainly ignored in the 2016 EU ref. I don’t see my preference being ignored more misrepresented. I opted to remain in the Eu but somehow my vote is now being used to engineer another Indyref 2. If there was another eu referendum it certainly wouldn’t be such a simple decision for many Scottish remain voters. It would also present a very unwelcome hurdle for anyone wishing Scottish independence in the future 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 8 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said: 8 hours ago, welshbairn said: Changed your mind again? Fair do's , I do most days. No I really haven't and in no way does this post indicate that. Still think A50 will be extended then referendum. I'm just asking whether anyone on the forum thinks this is a tad undemocratic Over the weekend some (I think it was Sturgeon) made the point that when people voted in the Independence Referendum that they were voting on an 800+ page White Paper. Whether or not they agreed they at least had significant details as to what was on offer. People voted on the Brexit referendum virtually blind. Suggesting that it is undemocratic to have a vote now that people know what is on offer is the ONLY democratic way to move forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 Over the weekend some (I think it was Sturgeon) made the point that when people voted in the Independence Referendum that they were voting on an 800+ page White Paper. Whether or not they agreed they at least had significant details as to what was on offer. People voted on the Brexit referendum virtually blind. Suggesting that it is undemocratic to have a vote now that people know what is on offer is the ONLY democratic way to move forward. It's funny (tragic) how the unionists jumped on the bandwagon re. The white paper. Yes movement at least showed mature competence in their debate and vision. The English electorate have really been treated with contempt by the Westminster charlatans for years 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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